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Old 08-25-2012, 01:36 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,422,399 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WK4J View Post
Paul The Apostle to the Gentiles said:

Colossians 2:
King James Version (KJV)
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

It seems the choice is Christ or the Law.

Whenever the question of the Sabbath is discussed, those who do not keep it holy will inevitably appeal to Colossians 2:16 as their authority for disobeying the fourth commandment of God.

What exactly did Paul mean when he wrote:

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days:" (KJV)

Yes, when Paul said "Sabbaths" he meant the seventh day Sabbath - but that does not mean that Paul was canceling the requirement for obedience to a commandment of God. What God has commanded only God can set aside. One may search the New Testament for a thousand years and he will not find a single verse that says God has abrogated one "jot or tittle" of His fourth commandment.

What then was Paul talking about when he said to let no man judge you in respect of Sabbaths? When we look at this verse in its context it soon becomes apparent that Paul was warning about the "Colossian Heresy" which was another gospel based on asceticism and the worship of angels in order to gain assistance from cosmic powers. The essence of this heresy was that Christ alone was not sufficient to deliver us from our slavery to sin.

As you will see from the following verses, Paul was warning against three things that were being added to the gospel.

1. Traditions of men.

2. The worship of angels.

3. Submitting to doctrines of men.

COL 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

COL 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days:

COL 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

COL 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using) AFTER THE COMMANDMENTS AND DOCTRINES OF MEN?

KEEPING THE SABBATH DAY HOLY IS NOT A DOCTRINE OF MEN!

Paul was not doing away with God's commandment; he was warning against the false teachers who were saying that if believers did not eat and drink the right food and keep the festivals, new moons and Sabbaths ACCORDING TO CERTAIN HUMAN REGULATIONS they would lose their reward.

According to verse :23 below, they were teaching that without these ascetic regulations one could not overcome the flesh:

COL 2:23 These [DOCTRINES OF MEN] have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting rigor of devotion and self-abasement and severity to the body, but they are of no value in checking the indulgence of the flesh. (RSV)



One commentator summed up these verses by saying:

"We conclude then that in verse :16, the warning is not against the Sabbath, festivals and dietary laws as such, but rather against those who promote these practices as indispensable aids to Christian perfection and as needed protection from the 'elements [evil spiritual forces] of the world' thus denying the all sufficiency of Christ."

(Samuele Bacchiocchi, From Sabbath To Sunday)



Now really, doesn't that explanation make a lot more sense than the notion that Christians are no longer required to obey the fourth commandment? It is a true saying that: "The commandment is not nullified by the condemnation of its abuse.".

The question we need to ask is this: "Was Paul condemning the Sabbath day, or was he CONDEMNING THE DOCTRINES OF MEN who added ritualistic and ascetic restrictions to faith in Christ?"

In order to answer that dispute, one must look at the broad picture. There is not a single verse in the
New Testament which states that Paul taught a new doctrine that canceled the Sabbath commandment; nor is there any record of a controversy between the Jews and Gentile Christians over Sabbath-keeping.

If Paul had been teaching that the Sabbath commandment had been repealed, it would have split the church wide open and he would have had to answer the objections continuously in his epistles.

Think about it - if the Jewish believers made such a fuss about circumcision being optional, imagine what they would have said about the Sabbath day being revoked.

At some point we must use common sense and reason to interpret what has been written. For example, does "Let no man judge you in meat and drink..." mean that Christians can be drunkards? Of course not, because you know that God's word forbids drunkenness. Well, it also forbids Sabbath-breaking!

It is only logical to assume that if God was going to cancel one of His commandments, he would make that fact very clear. Surely, if someone said to you: "Let no man judge you in respect of murder or adultery" you would not assume that God had changed His mind about those sins without solid proof. Certainly, you would demand more evidence than one lonely verse in the book of Colossians. Or would you?



NOTE:

In addition to the Greek and Latin manuscripts of the New Testament, there is a third text called the Pe****ta. The Pe****ta is from ancient Eastern manuscripts written in Aramaic, the natural language of Jesus. Hebrews 4:9 in the Pe****ta text reads:

"It is therefore the duty of the people of God to keep the Sabbath."

Quote:
Originally Posted by WK4J View Post
It seems there are a couple of people on this forum that keep posting the same subject over and over and over. I wonder why they are allowed to continue to do this. Most well moderated forums boot these kind of people.
If that were the case...the "booting off of these kind of people" as you put it concerning, "those who continue to post the same subject over and over again"...would include you.....too.....as well as practically everyone else on this board.

...I cannot count on 100 hands of 10 sets of digits the times some unbeliever has used the Colossians 2:16 excuse as why NOT to keep the Ten Commandments of God.....but they continue to do so...over and over and over and over and over and over and over...etc...etc...etc. So, the few people like me, who know the TRUTH of the Gospel, have to continue over and over and over and over and over again in response to be sure the TRUTH is known.


...and by the way...I must add...this Forum IS VERY WELL Moderated by some VERY FINE Moderators !


Good Day.

Last edited by Verna Perry; 08-25-2012 at 01:39 PM.. Reason: wanted to add: maybe you should go back to posting on one of those other "well moderated forums".
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Old 08-25-2012, 03:47 PM
 
146 posts, read 142,014 times
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Its strange to me everytime the commandments are mentioned people always make it about the sabbath. Acts 15 was the perfect place to put a commandment to keep sabbath so we would not question it. But its not there. Neither have I ever in 38 years of reading scripture I have not found one New Testament verse saying we must.
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Old 08-25-2012, 04:11 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,422,399 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
Its strange to me everytime the commandments are mentioned people always make it about the sabbath. Acts 15 was the perfect place to put a commandment to keep sabbath so we would not question it. But its not there. Neither have I ever in 38 years of reading scripture I have not found one New Testament verse saying we must.
Don't even go there Michael...please.

It isn't that it isn't in there...it is that "you have not found it"...why ? because your eyes cannot see it...why ? because your eyes are blinded from knowing His truth because you are an unbeliever in His word. You choose to believe insead, the false teachings you have heard all of your life, up till now...now...you hear truth...and you do not accept it as truth...that is called pride...pride is keeping you from seeking...truly seeking..for YOURSELF what truth lies in those precious words called Scripture.

I could post so many verses ...(endless amounts) in the New Testament ! that explain that keeping the Sabbath is to be REMEMBERED and to be kept in order to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven...but it would be for naught...because you would not believe them if they were placed right before your very blinded eyes. Am I wrong ? I don't think so.


So I won't.


Sad.
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Old 08-25-2012, 04:31 PM
 
2,532 posts, read 2,017,457 times
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ACTS 15:24-28 "Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, You must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That you abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if you keep yourselves, you shall do well. Fare ye well." Common sense and love had already been given by Christ so as not to murder,steal,ect and He gives rest both spiritually and physically but not according to a specific day prescibed by the law.


REV 22:14 "Blessed are they that do His [Christ's] commandments, that they may have right to the Tree of Life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."
This Scripture is not talking about the Ten Commandments but rather whatever commands that Jesus gives to build the Kingdom which certainly includes the basics of the ten [certainly no one should muder, steal, ect] but it goes much deeper than that and it does not include the Sabbath because Jesus said to the rich man what to keep of those ten, and He did not include the Sabbath.

Last edited by garya123; 08-25-2012 at 04:51 PM..
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Old 08-25-2012, 04:37 PM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
18,678 posts, read 23,258,366 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tthttf View Post
If one is to become a converted Christian, one must become spiritually an Israelite! Salvation is for “every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek” (Rom. 1:16).

Gentiles were not even excluded, under the Old Testament, the Sabbath was for Gentiles as well as Israelites.

Gentiles could come into the congregation of Israel and many did. Note that when they were first leaving Egypt, “... a mixed multitude went up also with them” (Ex. 12:38). So we see that Gentiles were among them.

The instructions that God gave for observing the Passover: “And when a stranger [Gentile] shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the Passover to the Eternal, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land” (Ex. 12:48). Verse 49: “One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.”

So Gentiles could come in and become naturalized citizens of Israel.

Jesus Christ said that the Sabbath was made for MAN and not just for the Jews only, not for the Israelites only, but for man! Even as it was made for Adam, it was also made for man in this 21st century.

Isaiah 56 begins with a “Thus saith the LORD ...” So, this is from God.

“... Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.” This is the time setting of this prophecy.

So when is God’s salvation near to come and when is His righteousness to be revealed? See Hebrews 9:27-28.

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”

Christ will bring salvation when He appears the 2nd time.

The RSV: “So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to save those who are eagerly waiting for Him.”

And when does Christ’s Salvation appear? Revelation 12:10: “Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ” --the time of Christ’s second coming.

Jesus said: “And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be” (Rev. 22:12). Again, the time is Christ’s second coming.

Therefore we see that the time of Isaiah’s prophecy is just shortly before the second coming of Christ.

Notice what Christ says in Isaiah:

“Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. Neither let the son of the stranger [Gentile], that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, the LORD hath utterly separated me from his people” (Isa. 56:2-3).

Therefore let no Gentile, in our 21st century, now, that has been converted, and joined himself to the Lord Jesus Christ, say that Christ has separated him from God’s people Israel. No. The Sabbath was NOT a sign to separate Gentiles from Israelites! Gentiles were NOT excluded! The Sabbath is a sign to show who are His and who are not!

Isa. 56:6-7: “Also the sons of the stranger [Gentile], that join themselves to the LORD [that become Christians] to observe him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; Even them [Gentiles] will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer ....”

Therefore you have positive proof with an irrefutable “thus saith the LORD” that the Sabbath was made for man, for mankind, for Gentile as well as Israelite.

And God has made His Sabbath binding forever (Ex. 31:12-17). It is binding forever, perpetually, throughout their generations, on Israelites. Their generations have not ended. Forever has not ended.

Now, Israelites become Christians through Christ just the same as Gentiles. So, Israelite Christians, then, are bound to keep God’s Holy Sabbath.

And what about the Gentiles? They, too, must keep it. They become Israelites, spiritually, when they receive God’s Holy Spirit and become truly converted Christians. God does not have a one way for the Jew and another way for the Gentile. He does not have one day for the Jew and another day for the Gentile. We know that Christ is not divided and that God is no respecter of persons but we are all one in Christ.

Not for this Gentile.
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Old 08-25-2012, 05:23 PM
 
Location: Texas and Arkansas
1,319 posts, read 1,218,273 times
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Christians are the true name. The whole family of God in Heaven and Earth goes by that name. The true Jews are Christians ... not Christians becoming Jews.

This "spiritual Israelites" you speak of are from the foundation of the world. The OT Jews were just the fleshly type of the true, that which was to come. tthttf has it backwards trying to make the true Christian become the fleshly in bondage Jew.
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Old 08-25-2012, 07:29 PM
 
951 posts, read 828,780 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cowdog View Post
Christians are the true name. The whole family of God in Heaven and Earth goes by that name. The true Jews are Christians ... not Christians becoming Jews.

This "spiritual Israelites" you speak of are from the foundation of the world. The OT Jews were just the fleshly type of the true, that which was to come. tthttf has it backwards trying to make the true Christian become the fleshly in bondage Jew.
No, I was correct.

You have to be graffed into the Israel of God, spiritual Israel.

Revelation 22:
13 I [Jesus Christ] am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments [God the Father's Commandments], that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie [those who have not repented and are breaking God's Commandments].

Revelation 21:
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

There is not a gate for Gentiles. They must become spiritual Israelites to enter through the gates of the great city.

God's true Church today is Spiritual Israel and not a Gentile church. God's true Church obeys God keep God's Commandments, Holy Sabbaths both weekly and annual and has God's Holy Spirit and has the "faith OF Christ".
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Old 08-25-2012, 09:18 PM
 
Location: CentralAlabama
173 posts, read 103,444 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post

If that were the case...the "booting off of these kind of people" as you put it concerning, "those who continue to post the same subject over and over again"...would include you.....too.....as well as practically everyone else on this board.

...I cannot count on 100 hands of 10 sets of digits the times some unbeliever has used the Colossians 2:16 excuse as why NOT to keep the Ten Commandments of God.....but they continue to do so...over and over and over and over and over and over and over...etc...etc...etc. So, the few people like me, who know the TRUTH of the Gospel, have to continue over and over and over and over and over again in response to be sure the TRUTH is known.


...and by the way...I must add...this Forum IS VERY WELL Moderated by some VERY FINE Moderators !


Good Day.
Well the first part of your post was redundant and I have heard it all before. But I would say that since you know what is going to be said in response to your post then why do you continue to post the same thing?

I recall a wise man once said "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome". Maybe he had a point. I will not post to your same topics any more and you can stop posting the same thing over and over. Let's just agree to disagree and talk about something else for a change. Are you willing to do that with me? I hope so!
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Old 08-26-2012, 02:29 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,422,399 times
Reputation: 841
Quote:
Originally Posted by WK4J View Post
Well the first part of your post was redundant and I have heard it all before. But I would say that since you know what is going to be said in response to your post then why do you continue to post the same thing?

I recall a wise man once said "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome". Maybe he had a point. I will not post to your same topics any more and you can stop posting the same thing over and over. Let's just agree to disagree and talk about something else for a change. Are you willing to do that with me? I hope so!
...call me crazy !

Actually WK, turns out it isn't about you or me...nor is it about what you and I may or may not agree upon...what it is about is souls....and God willing...leading as many of them to Him through the teaching of the truth...HIS truth.....and I must say...I'll never change the passion I have within me to provide the true message He has given to me....!

As many times as one can post the lie...I can respond with the truth. I'll continue on doing that until He calls me home....it really isn't a problem for me to do so. You're the one who seems to have the problem with hearing it over and over again. Get used to it...you are on a Christian board here...and you are going to hear the same topics over and over and over again...if you can't handle that...then find yourself another forum that appeals to you more....is all I am saying.

...saying that...I will also add, you and I can agree to disagree....absolutely...but you can stop suggesting that the mods "boot people like me off of here". That won't happen...ever. I've been here a long time sir/mam...a lot longer than you...and I happen to like it here.

One wise man once said..."If you can't beat 'em, join 'em."


Blessings to you.
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Old 08-26-2012, 07:16 AM
 
Location: CentralAlabama
173 posts, read 103,444 times
Reputation: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
...call me crazy !

Actually WK, turns out it isn't about you or me...nor is it about what you and I may or may not agree upon...what it is about is souls....and God willing...leading as many of them to Him through the teaching of the truth...HIS truth.....and I must say...I'll never change the passion I have within me to provide the true message He has given to me....!

As many times as one can post the lie...I can respond with the truth. I'll continue on doing that until He calls me home....it really isn't a problem for me to do so. You're the one who seems to have the problem with hearing it over and over again. Get used to it...you are on a Christian board here...and you are going to hear the same topics over and over and over again...if you can't handle that...then find yourself another forum that appeals to you more....is all I am saying.

...saying that...I will also add, you and I can agree to disagree....absolutely...but you can stop suggesting that the mods "boot people like me off of here". That won't happen...ever. I've been here a long time sir/mam...a lot longer than you...and I happen to like it here.

One wise man once said..."If you can't beat 'em, join 'em."


Blessings to you.
I wish you would post the truth so we don't have to continue to correct you with God's word. Maybe you should read it sometime and see if you can begin to accept what it says. Try it, you might like it.

Best of luck to you as you wander about.
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