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Old 08-30-2012, 05:35 PM
 
1,867 posts, read 1,168,555 times
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Saul in the old testament lost his annointing and place as king.
The Holy Spirit left him.

Blood boasting is not enough-----Romans 6:1.

The Holy Spirit left the young rich ruler that boasted in doing the 10 commandments since
his youth.

His materialism or money got in the way of him staying saved.

Solomon likewise lost his annointing and place as king.
The Holy Spirit left him too.

Perhaps you remember the parables with the thorny heart, stony heart and heart by the wayside.

Thorny heart people get excited about God and the world too unfortunately.
They can't reside with the Holy Spirit long.

Stony heart people get excited about God until their feelings get hurt.
The Holy Spirit is leaving that person.

The faithful are saved----John 8:31.
They don't have short cut Christianity.
Impossible for a 90% bible believer to be a convert for Jesus----Matthew 5:17-20.

Blood boasting is a start it's not salvation itself----Romans 6:1.

Failure don't mean we're blood bought into salvation only----John 5:39.

Confession and repentance is the salvation plan too----1 John 1:9.

Striving for biblical perfection is the Christian life----Phillipians 3:12-14.

No life in Jesus without doing so----Matthew 4:4.

Again the goal is not to educate ignorant minds nor win arguments or have a doctrine of my own.

Instead the goal is simply to unite with 100% bible believers----Psalms 133:1.
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Old 08-30-2012, 07:03 PM
 
20,338 posts, read 15,721,845 times
Reputation: 7482
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonytonytony View Post
Saul in the old testament lost his annointing and place as king.
The Holy Spirit left him.

Blood boasting is not enough-----Romans 6:1.

The Holy Spirit left the young rich ruler that boasted in doing the 10 commandments since
his youth.

His materialism or money got in the way of him staying saved.

Solomon likewise lost his annointing and place as king.
The Holy Spirit left him too.

Perhaps you remember the parables with the thorny heart, stony heart and heart by the wayside.

Thorny heart people get excited about God and the world too unfortunately.
They can't reside with the Holy Spirit long.

Stony heart people get excited about God until their feelings get hurt.
The Holy Spirit is leaving that person.

The faithful are saved----John 8:31.
They don't have short cut Christianity.
Impossible for a 90% bible believer to be a convert for Jesus----Matthew 5:17-20.

Blood boasting is a start it's not salvation itself----Romans 6:1.

Failure don't mean we're blood bought into salvation only----John 5:39.

Confession and repentance is the salvation plan too----1 John 1:9.

Striving for biblical perfection is the Christian life----Phillipians 3:12-14.

No life in Jesus without doing so----Matthew 4:4.

Again the goal is not to educate ignorant minds nor win arguments or have a doctrine of my own.

Instead the goal is simply to unite with 100% bible believers----Psalms 133:1.
The believer in Jesus Christ cannot lose his salvation. He is eternally secure by the grace of God. You can neither work to earn your salvation or do anything to maintain your salvation. It is God who maintains your salvation. The believer is not saved on the basis of his own righteousness, but because when he initially trusted in Jesus Christ for eternal life he received the imputation of God's own righteousness.

Two ministries of the Holy Spirit which are unique to the Church-age and which occur at the moment of faith in Christ are the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit. While the believer is not born again by either of these two ministries, it is the regenerating ministry of the Holy Spirit which accomplishes that and is common to all dispensations, nevertheless both the sealing ministry and the baptism of the Holy Spirit are proofs of the believer's eternal security.

The believer is sealed unto the day of redemption (Eph. 1:13-14). In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14] who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

The sealing of the Holy Spirit is the believer's assurance of a secure future. The Greek word for sealing is sphragizó and 'signifies ownership and the full security carried by the backing (full authority) of the owner.'

HELPS Word-studies
4972 sphragízō (from 4973 /sphragís, "a seal") – properly, to seal (affix) with a signet ring or other instrument to stamp (a roller or seal), i.e. to attest ownership, authorizing (validating) what is sealed.

4972 /sphragízō ("to seal") signifies ownership and the full security carried by the backing (full authority) of the owner. "Sealing" in the ancient world served as a "legal signature" which guaranteed the promise (contents) of what was sealed.
Strong's Greek: 4972. ???????? (sphragizó) -- to seal

God seals the believer with His seal - The Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation.


Then there is the baptism of the Holy Spirit for which the purpose is to form the Church which is the body of Christ who is the head of the Church (1 Cor. 12:12-13), and to remove the distinction between Jew and Gentile in the Church-age (Eph. 2:14-15; Col 3:10-11). The Church-age believer is neither Jew or Gentile, but is Church, a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17). No part of the body of Christ will ever be amputated. No believer will ever be separated from the body of Christ.


Believers of all dispensations received the imputation of God's righteousness which by itself guarantees the believers eternal security.

Church-age believers are distinquished from believers of other dispensations in that we have greater privileges and opportunities, as well as greater divine operational assets such as the sealing ministry and the baptism of the Holy Spirit which are further guarantees of the believers eternal security.

God is a God of grace. The believer's salvation and eternal security is a matter of grace.


With regard to the Holy Spirit departing from Saul as mentioned in your post, no believer in Old Testament times was ever indwelt by the Holy Spirit. But a few believers were endued with the Holy Spirit for the purpose of being enpowered to perform certain tasks. Enduement could be removed because of disobedience. In the Church-age every believer is pemanently indwelt by the Holy Spirit which is yet another ministry of the Holy Spirit which occurs at the moment of salvation.

Last edited by Mike555; 08-30-2012 at 08:30 PM..
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Old 08-30-2012, 07:48 PM
 
6,824 posts, read 4,896,900 times
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Preachers's that use Romans 6 in attempt to demonstrate one can lose their salvation tend to do the following:


Romans 6

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid...

That's where they stop.. It sounds like if one continues in sin then Grace discontinues, but when you read further it says the following:


...How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Paul is making the case in Romans 6:1-2. He's saying since you are dead to sin why are you going to continue in living in sin. He goes on to describe that once you were saved by Baptism of the Holy Spirit we have technically died and should be walking in the power of the resurrection life.

He's not saying that if you continue to sin Grace will discontinue. He's saying God forbid we continue in sin when we are dead to it. We aren't to use our liberty for license. What we are overcome by, we are brought into bondage. We are servants to whom we obey. If we obey sin than we are brought into bondage of it.

It's a shame so many use Romans 6:1 improperly. Tony I recommend doing an exposition on Romans 6 to understand the text with context.

Mike did a great job demonstrating that what Saves a believer from Hell is 100 percent God's Grace entirely independent from man's "works". Saved by Grace and kept by Grace.

With this being said, a saved individual that is unfaithful will reap what they sow. The Scriptures talk about judgment for believers. Unfaithfulness results in disapproval. Both the Lord and Paul talk about being "castaway". A saved individual that is disapproved for rewards.
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Old 08-30-2012, 08:27 PM
 
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One can not LOSE Salvation, as Mis-Placing it.

But one can surely THROW Salvation Away.
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Old 08-30-2012, 08:41 PM
 
20,338 posts, read 15,721,845 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RevelationWriter View Post
One can not LOSE Salvation, as Mis-Placing it.

But one can surely THROW Salvation Away.
Once a person is saved through faith alone in Christ alone, he is eternally secure. He cannot throw away his salvation. He did not save himself, and he can do nothing to maintain his salvation or to lose it, or to throw it away. Pandora, please carefully read my other post. The believer's salvation and eternal security is quaranteed.
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Old 08-30-2012, 09:01 PM
 
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My parents dunked me in water about 4 months after I was born. I was wet, but now that I've dried off, I'm saved.
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Old 08-30-2012, 10:36 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,586,830 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertpolyglot View Post
My parents dunked me in water about 4 months after I was born. I was wet, but now that I've dried off, I'm saved.
*********

THE LAMB, SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD

"Yet His work had been finished from the foundation of the world" [Hebrew 4:1-3].

"He was foreordained (predetermined) before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you" [1 Peter 1:18-20].

"And all who dwell upon the earth shall worship Him, whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life, of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" [Rev 13:6-9].
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Old 08-30-2012, 10:37 PM
 
Location: Whereever we have our RV parked
8,114 posts, read 7,122,862 times
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Why don't we check the good book on this one?

Ro 8:12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it.Ro 8:13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Jn 15:6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Mt 13:20 The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy.
Mt 13:21 But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.

Heb 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, Heb 6:5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, Heb 6:6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Ro 11:22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

So I guess the Good Book settles it. Yes, Christians can and many do fall away and lose their faith and their salvation. I just listed the ones that came to mind right away. There are many more. God said it, that settles it and I believe it.
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Old 08-31-2012, 01:44 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prairieparson View Post
Why don't we check the good book on this one?

Ro 8:12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it.Ro 8:13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Jn 15:6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Mt 13:20 The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy.
Mt 13:21 But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.

Heb 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, Heb 6:5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, Heb 6:6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Ro 11:22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

So I guess the Good Book settles it. Yes, Christians can and many do fall away and lose their faith and their salvation. I just listed the ones that came to mind right away. There are many more. God said it, that settles it and I believe it.
Prairieparson, none of those passages have anything to do with being able to lose your salvation. Loss of salvation is simply not possible. You don't understand those verses you are using to argue against the eternal security of the believer. I suggest that you go back and look at post #2 and what I said about the fact that the believer is imputed with God's own righteousness, that he is sealed by the Spirit, and that he is a part of the body of Christ and cannot be separated from it.


Rom. 8:12 for example is part of a passage dealing with the conflict between the indwelling Holy Spirit and the old sin nature. Rom. 8:6 says, For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, The Bible speaks of different categories of 'death.' One of those categories is carnal death which is simply being under the control of the old sin nature. The believer who sins is in a state of carnality. A believer who remains in carnality for extended periods becomes backslidden or reversionistic which means that his spiritual life is useless.

Paul is not saying that the reversionistic believer will face the second death in the lake of fire, but rather, he is saying that the believer who lives according to the sinful nature has no spiritual dynamics. His spiritual life is useless as long as he remains in a state of extended carnality. He will seem like an unsaved person and be unable to enjoy the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit within him. An example of this is found in 1 Cor. 3:1-4. And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. 2] I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, 3] for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men? 4] For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not mere men?

These Corinthian believers were eternally saved, but they were carnal. They were full of jealousy and strife and walking as mere men. As if they were unbelievers.

The believer who lives in sin, who walks in the flesh cannot please God, but is grieving and quenching the Spirit who indwells him.



John 15:6 is part of a passage which deals not with salvation but with abiding in Christ which refers to the believer's day to day fellowship with Christ. About walking in the Spirit. The emphasis is on bearing fruit - spiritual production.

This passage speaks of the believers unchanging position in Jesus Christ - 'Every branch in Me', and the believers responsibility to abide in Him - to be filled with the Spirit and to walk in the Spirit, and to bear fruit. John 15:6 speaks of the consequences of not abiding and not bearing fruit.

The believer who does not abide in Christ, who does not walk in the Spirit, but who instead is living in carnality, cannot produce good fruit.

1 Cor. 3:11-15 helps to clarifiy what John 15:6 is saying. 1 Cor. 3:11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12] Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13] each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14] If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15] If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

John 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Abiding in Christ and the filling of the Spirit - 'be filled with the Spirit' (Eph. 5:18), are the same thing. Walking in the Spirit (Gal. 5:16) keeps the believer abiding in Christ.

The believer who does not abide in Christ can only produce 'wood, hay, and straw' which will be burned up, but the believer himself is still saved, though as through fire.


I will get to the rest of the verses you listed at a later time.

Last edited by Mike555; 08-31-2012 at 02:07 AM..
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Old 08-31-2012, 05:40 AM
 
Location: US
26,437 posts, read 14,022,560 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonytonytony View Post
Saul in the old testament lost his annointing and place as king.
The Holy Spirit left him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonytonytony View Post
The Holy Spirit left the young rich ruler that boasted in doing the 10 commandments since
his youth.
Where does it say the Rich Young Ruler was saved and a believer?...
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