U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 09-17-2012, 03:43 PM
 
19,720 posts, read 15,095,024 times
Reputation: 6965

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Then God expects that there isn't much to disginuish between UR's " all ", and the Mellennialist's "fall " .

What you see as failure ... is only the failure of the plank.
I am not even going to bother to ask the meaning of what you think you're saying with that comment.

Your belief that there will not be a Millennial kingdom on the earth is not based on the Scriptures, but because that apparently is what Luthernism teaches. The Bible gives clear discriptions of what life in the Millennium will be like, but you can't get past Luthernism. So be it. It is your problem. Trying to get though to you is like talking to a wall. It is pointless. Your opinions have been well refuted, but just go right on believing what you believe.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-17-2012, 03:50 PM
 
19,720 posts, read 15,095,024 times
Reputation: 6965
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
So man does his part and God does His part and somewhere in between both come together. Sounds rational to me.
Man's 'part' is non-meritorious. Salvation is contengent upon one non-meritorious act of faith in Christ. In placing your faith in Christ alone, you are refraining from any meritorious effort on your part to earn salvation. The free gift of eternal life is taken posession of through that one act of non-meritorious faith. Everything that was necessary for God to be able to make salvation available to man was accomplished by Christ on the cross.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-17-2012, 03:59 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,821 posts, read 9,596,928 times
Reputation: 1299
Then God expects that there isn't much to disginuish between UR's " all ", and the Mellennialist's "fall " .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I am not even going to bother to ask the meaning of what you think you're saying with that comment.

Your belief that there will not be a Millennial kingdom on the earth is not based on the Scriptures, but because that apparently is what Luthernism teaches. The Bible gives clear discriptions of what life in the Millennium will be like, but you can't get past Luthernism. So be it. It is your problem. Trying to get though to you is like talking to a wall. It is pointless. Your opinions have been well refuted, but just go right on believing what you believe.
Simple ....
In your view, UR is wrong by their "all" arguments, yet you can't see that you use the same approach to the word "fall".

You love to make a three ring circus of how the word "fall" in:Galatians 5:4
"You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."
doesn't mean loss of salvation.

The mentality of OSAS argues are like a baby duck UR.
OSAS and UR are two different aprroaches to the same coin.

They both argue for the eventuality of being saved when one doesn't profess faith \ remains faithful to the end.
Just that OSAS has one fix, UR has another.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-17-2012, 04:05 PM
 
19,720 posts, read 15,095,024 times
Reputation: 6965
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Then God expects that there isn't much to disginuish between UR's " all ", and the Mellennialist's "fall " .



Simple ....
In your view, UR is wrong by their "all" arguments, yet you can't see that you use the same approach to the word "fall".

You love to make a three ring circus of how the word "fall" in:Galatians 5:4
"You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."
doesn't mean loss of salvation.

The mentality of OSAS argues are like a baby duck UR.
OSAS and UR are two different aprroaches to the same coin.
One last comment to you. Falling from grace does not mean losing your salvation. It refers to no longer believing in the principle of grace and falling into legalism. It's as simple as that. We're done here.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-17-2012, 05:09 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,821 posts, read 9,596,928 times
Reputation: 1299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
One last comment to you. Falling from grace does not mean losing your salvation. It refers to no longer believing in the principle of grace and falling into legalism. It's as simple as that. We're done here.
Here here...
Ephesians 2:4-5
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved
[1] God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ
......... not man's decision, not man's volition that made us alive with Christ

[2] But because of his great love for us ..... made us alive with Christ
.... Not because of his great anger or our cooperation that .... made us alive with Chrsit

[3] when we were dead in transgressions
...... physically dead can't chose to do anything for themselves, the spiritually dead can't either.

[4] it is by grace you have been saved
....... reject grace, one rejects saved (salvation)
........ grace and saved are inseparable
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-17-2012, 06:14 PM
 
483 posts, read 324,265 times
Reputation: 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No Twin.Spin. Lutherism is wrong on those issues. 1 Cor. 2:14 does not mean that the unbeliever can't respond to the gospel and I explained that in post #34. The natural man is not left on his own but is helped by the Holy Spirit at the point of gospel hearing.

And I have explained on other threads what those passages which you use to claim that salvation can be lost actually mean. You refuse to believe what they actually mean.

God expects the believer to study and rightly divide the word of truth. Something you fail to do.

I think it's important to look at 1 Cor 2:14 very carefully. Here we read:

"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

God does tell us here very precisely that, by nature, we do not, nor cannot "receive the things of the Spirit of God".

And from this verse we see that the reason we cannot, is because these things "are spiritually discerned".

We looked before at Ezekiel 36. Verses 26 and 27 read as follows:

26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

We see that God's saving work involves His giving to the ones he saves "a new heart" and "a new spirit". He further states that He will put His Spirit within the one He saves.

This action on God's part resolves our problem of not being able to discern the things of the Spirit, because now as saved individuals we have the Spirit of God within us. We can read of this fact in verses such as 1 Cor 3:16 and Rom 8:9 (just to name two).

We read elsewhere (as has been stated already by others on this thread) that we, by nature, are "dead in trespasses and sins", and that God has "made alive" those who become saved. Upon becoming saved, we are said to have "passed from death to life".

This has been just a quick reference, as an entire treatise could be done on this topic. But I can find no way to simply explain away what appears here to be a clear teaching of man's natural spiritual bankruptcy. God has purposed within Himself to save a people for Himself. And despite our deadness, He makes us alive in order to accomplish His purpose.

I would like to leave this with what I believe is a very important question. What ultimately determines why it is that I would respond to the gospel call. That is to say, why, upom hearing about my sin(s) before a Holy God and how I am in serious trouble with Him, did I take heed and become very troubled because of it, then hear about God's wonderful provision of salvation by grace through Jesus Christ, and then cry out to Him for mercy, and finally embrace Christ with all my being, placing my trust in Him, alone, for salvation, being made fully aware that I could do nothing to save myself from this awful predicament.

Then...why is it that my neighbor heard the same message, and regarded it as a lot of foolishness, and just went on his way? Was I, by nature, any better than he? Certainly not! We both were in the same situation. But why did I embrace this salvation message, whereas my neighbor did not?

Based on biblical teaching, it was the sovereign enabling and drawing of God. Otherwise no one could possibly receive this truth unto salvation. I am no better than the next person, nor any more able to hear this precious Word. It has to be the work of God.

Last edited by JAA2310; 09-17-2012 at 06:30 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-17-2012, 07:05 PM
 
19,720 posts, read 15,095,024 times
Reputation: 6965
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAA2310 View Post
I think it's important to look at 1 Cor 2:14 very carefully. Here we read:

"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

God does tell us here very precisely that, by nature, we do not, nor cannot "receive the things of the Spirit of God".

And from this verse we see that the reason we cannot, is because these things "are spiritually discerned".

We looked before at Ezekiel 36. Verses 26 and 27 read as follows:

26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

We see that God's saving work involves His giving to the ones he saves "a new heart" and "a new spirit". He further states that He will put His Spirit within the one He saves.

This action on God's part resolves our problem of not being able to discern the things of the Spirit, because now as saved individuals we have the Spirit of God within us. We can read of this fact in verses such as 1 Cor 3:16 and Rom 8:9 (just to name two).

We read elsewhere (as has been stated already by others on this thread) that we, by nature, are "dead in trespasses and sins", and that God has "made alive" those who become saved. Upon becoming saved, we are said to have "passed from death to life".

This has been just a quick reference, as an entire treatise could be done on this topic. But I can find no way to simply explain away what appears here to be a clear teaching of man's natural spiritual bankruptcy. God has purposed within Himself to save a people for Himself. And despite our deadness, He makes us alive in order to accomplish His purpose.

I would like to leave this with what I believe is a very important question. What ultimately determines why it is that I would respond to the gospel call. That is to say, why, upom hearing about my sin(s) before a Holy God and how I am in serious trouble with Him, did I take heed and become very troubled because of it, then hear about God's wonderful provision of salvation by grace through Jesus Christ, and then cry out to Him for mercy, and finally embrace Christ with all my being, placing my trust in Him, alone, for salvation, being made fully aware that I could do nothing to save myself from this awful predicament.

Then...why is it that my neighbor heard the same message, and regarded it as a lot of foolishness, and just went on his way? Was I, by nature, any better than he? Certainly not! We both were in the same situation. But why did I embrace this salvation message, whereas my neighbor did not?

Based on biblical teaching, it was the sovereign enabling and drawing of God. Otherwise no one could possibly receive this truth unto salvation. I am no better than the next person, nor any more able to hear this precious Word. It has to be the work of God.
What I am trying to make clear is that the natural man is not left on his own. When the gospel is presented to the spiritually dead unbeliever, the Holy Spirit makes the gospel understandable to him, and draws him though his convicting ministry in common grace which is mentioned in John 16:8-11. Some people will respond and others won't. The Holy Spirit can be resisted as shown in Acts 7:51.

But anyone who wishes can come to Christ in response to the gospel as shown in Revelation 22:17.


The indwelling of the Holy Spirit does not precede faith, but is a result of faith and actually is simultaneous with faith in Christ. No one in the Old Testament ever had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, or the filling of the Holy Spirit, or the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Those ministries did not exist prior to the Church Age. There were a few believers who had the enduement of the Spirit for the purpose of accomplishing certain tasks. What IS common to all dispensations is the regenerating ministry of the Holy Spirit. That is the means by which a person is born again.

But it is the common grace ministry of the Holy Spirit which allows the natural man to understand and respond to the gospel so that he can be born again.

The sequence is that the gospel is given, and by means of the common grace ministry of the Holy Spirit the gospel is made perspicacious to the spiritually dead unbeliever (the natural man). The unbeliever cannot understand the realm of Bible doctrine, but he can understand the specific gospel message through the Holy Spirit's ministry. If the gospel is believed with the result that the unbeliever places his faith in Christ, the Holy Spirit then takes that faith and makes it effective for salvation. This is the efficacious ministry of the Holy Spirit in response to the faith response.

God calls through the gospel. The Holy Spirit draws through His common grace ministry. If the gospel hearer than places his faith in Christ then the Holy Spirit carries that faith to the point of salvation.

Last edited by Mike555; 09-17-2012 at 07:26 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-17-2012, 07:09 PM
 
21 posts, read 19,160 times
Reputation: 13
BC< I am not aware of these scriptures. Can you tell me which ones they are.

L. Ray Smith did a teaching on this. It's on youtube


Does All mean All? (God WILL save ALL humanity!) L. Ray Smith - YouTube

You people are still forgetting Pharoah....

Feel free to speak your mind regarding the story of Pharaoh Richard, not everyone interprets that story the same.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-17-2012, 08:18 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,519,982 times
Reputation: 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Here here...
Ephesians 2:4-5
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved
[1] God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ
......... not man's decision, not man's volition that made us alive with Christ

[2] But because of his great love for us ..... made us alive with Christ
.... Not because of his great anger or our cooperation that .... made us alive with Chrsit

[3] when we were dead in transgressions
...... physically dead can't chose to do anything for themselves, the spiritually dead can't either.

[4] it is by grace you have been saved
....... reject grace, one rejects saved (salvation)
........ grace and saved are inseparable
Did I miss something? Twin you are sounding like a universalist with those arguments. Tell me that is true?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-17-2012, 09:19 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,821 posts, read 9,596,928 times
Reputation: 1299
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Did I miss something? Twin you are sounding like a universalist with those arguments. Tell me that is true?
Apparently .......
From a few posts back: (with a modest change)

OSAS and UR are two different approaches to the same coin.
They both argue for the eventuality of being saved when one doesn't profess faith \ remains faithful to the end.

OSAS has one fix (to the problem), UR has another.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2017, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 - Top