U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-05-2012, 06:10 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,651,035 times
Reputation: 7415

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Just a different flavor of Universalism.... but in the end is still the same story line.


That has nothing to do with your premise of:
[1] Therefore, no baby will go to the lake of fire, and neither will someone, no matter what his age, who is so mentally deficient that he could never conceive of the existence of God.

[2] anyone who dies prior to the point of accountability will have that condemnation removed because of the work of Christ on the cross




the automatic salvation of those who die before reaching the point of accountability is offering a different gospel plan where God does not.
You are proceeding from the standpoint of Lutheranism. Not the Bible.

As I said, Deut. 1:39 shows that though a child is born in sin, God deals differently with those who have no personal knowledge of good and evil. That provides an inference that God automatically saves those who are unable to understand the issue.

Perhaps one day you will learn how to compare Scripture with Scripture to arrive at correct doctrinal conclusions.


And again, this has nothing whatsoever to do with Universalism.

Last edited by Mike555; 10-05-2012 at 07:20 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-05-2012, 07:26 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,278 posts, read 20,883,681 times
Reputation: 9959
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
When Adam sinned he acquired a sinful nature - the old sin nature. The Bible refers to it as the Flesh (Gal.5:17; 6:8); the Old man [self] (Eph.4:22; Col.3:9); the Body of sin (Rom.6:6).

This old sin nature is genetic and is passed down through the male through procreation.
You have got to be kidding me. Sin is genetic?

Quote:
This sin nature is the reason why everyone is born spiritually dead and under condemnation.
Having a sinful nature does not imply that we are born guilty of anything, and God does not punish the innocent.

Quote:
All of Adam's descendents share his spiritual death from the moment of physical birth.
No, we are all born with the inclination or predisposition to sin, but a person is not a rapist until he rapes, not a murderer until he murders, and not a sinner until he sins.

Quote:
Because God has revealed Himself through His creation (Romans 1:19-20), man is without excuse.

Rom. 1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20] For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

It is not a matter of, 'What about those who have never heard the gospel?' God has revealed Himself through His creation so that man is without excuse.
Without excuse for what? Believing in a Higher Power is not the same thing as accepting Jesus Christ's Atonement. If a person did not need to hear the gospel message taught in order to be able to accept it, why did Jesus even bother telling His Apostles to teach it to all nations, kindreds and people? They apparently went to a lot of needless effort if everyone was "without excuse" for not believing what they were never taught. That said, I really would be interested in an answer to my question. Let me put it to you in a little more personal way... If you had been born in North Korea and had spent your entire life there, do you honestly think you'd be a Christian today?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-05-2012, 07:59 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,651,035 times
Reputation: 7415
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
You have got to be kidding me. Sin is genetic?

Having a sinful nature does not imply that we are born guilty of anything, and God does not punish the innocent.

No, we are all born with the inclination or predisposition to sin, but a person is not a rapist until he rapes, not a murderer until he murders, and not a sinner until he sins.
I have pointed you to what the Bible says conrcerning original sin. Whether you believe what the Bible says about it is up to you. The sin nature is genetic. It resides in the body. That is why Jesus had to be virgin born. The old sin nature is one of three sources of temptation - The world, the flesh or sin nature, and the devil are the three sources. When volition says yes to the temptation, sin is born.

We are condemned because of Adam's original sin. Not because of our personal sins. Our personal sins were set aside until Christ went to the cross where He was judged for them.
Quote:
Without excuse for what? Believing in a Higher Power is not the same thing as accepting Jesus Christ's Atonement. If a person did not need to hear the gospel message taught in order to be able to accept it, why did Jesus even bother telling His Apostles to teach it to all nations, kindreds and people? They apparently went to a lot of needless effort if everyone was "without excuse" for not believing what they were never taught. That said, I really would be interested in an answer to my question. Let me put it to you in a little more personal way... If you had been born in North Korea and had spent your entire life there, do you honestly think you'd be a Christian today?

I have explained all of this in detail in my previous posts on this thread. I am not going to keep repeating what I have already said. Go back and carefully read my posts.

Last edited by Mike555; 10-05-2012 at 08:10 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-05-2012, 10:19 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,823 posts, read 9,815,113 times
Reputation: 1301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Justice and fairness are synonymous terms. God is described in the Bible as just. Therefore God is described as fair.

You yourself said that God is not fair. In post #74 you said the following. 'In the light of the law it's not "fair" that Jesus became our sin and in exchange Jesus' perfection\Holiness is placed on us.'

One of God's attributes is justice. Justice is fairness. Since God is just, He cannot be unjust or do anything which is unjust.

Deut. 32:4 "The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He.

Jesus Christ did not have to come into the world to provide salvation. He chose to do so. Everything that was involved in providing salvation was just or 'fair.' Jesus agreed to go to the cross and take upon Himself the sins of the world. And as He bore our sins in His own body, God the Father righteously judged all of those sins.

And it is just or 'fair' that on the basis of the cross, God automatically saves those who have died without reaching the point of accountability. It's a shame that you don't understand that, but that's the way it is.
Justice and fairness are not synonymous terms.

If God was fair then the answer to the psalmist would be "nobody" to this question:
Psalm 130:3
If you, O LORD, kept a record of sins, O Lord, who could stand?
If God was fair, there would be absolutly no reason why you are a believer Mike.
You had no special qualities.. no special cognitive awareness ... you were no less spiritually dead than anybody else. You had just as much the filth and stench of sin that made you just as undersirable as the filthy menstral rage God says the human race is. Isaiah 64:6

There is no exception to this:
Genesis 6:5-7 The LORD saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.

The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.

“I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.”

FYI ........... babies are part of " mankind"


P.S.
oh, for those who only accept KJV .. Here is what God revealed:
Genesis 6:5-7 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

The Lord regretted making human beings on the earth, and he was heartbroken.

So the Lord said, “I will wipe off of the land the human race that I’ve created: from human beings to livestock to the crawling things to the birds in the skies, because I regret I ever made them.”


Yes... babies are part of the "human race"




.

Last edited by twin.spin; 10-05-2012 at 10:35 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-05-2012, 10:25 PM
 
Location: Whereever we have our RV parked
8,042 posts, read 7,065,957 times
Reputation: 13477
As others have stated, all are born in sin, and by nature enemies of God and objects of God's wrath. REmember the first commandment. Babies are born in unbelief. Note the following texts.

Eph 2:3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.

Ps 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth,sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

But some of you think this is cruel to think or say this, but you have to remember, this is why the sacrament of Baptism is given to all and commanded for all, even little children. To be saved, one has to be born again/born from above by water and the spirit in the sacrament of Holy Baptism.

Jn 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
Jn 1:13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit
Ac 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Ac 2:39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call

Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, Tit 3:6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, Tit 3:7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

Lastly, there is not one text in the entire Bible that can be used to justify teaching an "age of accountability". It is pure false doctrine, a doctrine of men, not God.




Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-05-2012, 10:40 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,278 posts, read 20,883,681 times
Reputation: 9959
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I have pointed you to what the Bible says conrcerning original sin. Whether you believe what the Bible says about it is up to you. The sin nature is genetic. It resides in the body. That is why Jesus had to be virgin born. The old sin nature is one of three sources of temptation - The world, the flesh or sin nature, and the devil are the three sources. When volition says yes to the temptation, sin is born.

We are condemned because of Adam's original sin. Not because of our personal sins. Our personal sins were set aside until Christ went to the cross where He was judged for them.

I have explained all of this in detail in my previous posts on this thread. I am not going to keep repeating what I have already said. Go back and carefully read my posts.
I've read your posts, and I don't find them to be in line with biblical teachings. There is nowhere where the Bible says that sin is genetic. There is nowhere where the Bible says God will punish us for Adam's sin. I don't believe either of those things to be true, and I definitely do believe the Bible.

(I commend you on being civil, though. You have proven that it is possible to disagree without being a jerk.)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-06-2012, 02:14 AM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,651,035 times
Reputation: 7415
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I've read your posts, and I don't find them to be in line with biblical teachings. There is nowhere where the Bible says that sin is genetic. There is nowhere where the Bible says God will punish us for Adam's sin. I don't believe either of those things to be true, and I definitely do believe the Bible.

(I commend you on being civil, though. You have proven that it is possible to disagree without being a jerk.)
Katzpur, I asked you to read my posts not with regard to the issue of the sin nature, but with regard to the issue of general revelation which is spoken of in Romans 1:19-20, and that because of it, man is without excuse for supressing the knowledge of God. However, both issues are indeed Biblical.


Distinquish between the sin nature and sin. The sin nature is a source of temptation. But sin originates with the volition. As I pointed out, the sin nature being genetic and passed down through the male in procreation is the reason why Jesus had to come into the world through a virgin birth. One of the synonyms for the sin nature is 'the flesh' as stated in Gal.5:17; 6:8.

In Romans 7:20-24 Paul shows the sin nature to be genetic; a part of the body.

Rom. 7:20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21] I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22] For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23] but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24] Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?

>>> > Notice that Paul states that the law of God is in the inner man, while the law of sin resides in the members of the body. The sin nature resides in the body and is a source of temptation. Sin itself originates with the volition.



The view which best describes why all mankind is born spiritually dead as a result of Adam's sin is the Federal Headship of Adam. Mankind was on probation in the garden, and Adam was the representative for all mankind which was to descend from him. I am not going to go into detail about Federal Headship, but here is a good read on it by A. W. Pink. >> A.W. Pink on Adam & Federal Headship « The Sovereign Logos

If you believe the Bible then believe this.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned (in Adam). ... 15] But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one (Adam) the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16] The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17] For if by the transgression of the one (Adam), death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

18] So then as through one transgression (Adam's original sin) there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

19] For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

1 Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

The result of Adam's original sin extend not only to the entire human race, but to nature itself.

Gen. 3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life. 18] "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field;


So there you have it. Clear statements of Scripture regarding the fact that the sin nature is in the body, and that the entire human race is cursed on account of Adam's original sin. Believe what you wish.

Last edited by Mike555; 10-06-2012 at 02:26 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-06-2012, 04:52 AM
 
7,860 posts, read 6,668,091 times
Reputation: 1371
Hagee and Meyers and a few others ministries have a poor root of condemnation towards Christians , and the best thing to do there is turn the channel when they come on , as they teach Christians to condemn others and judge them , which can lead to control , which will contradict the eternal commands of Jesus .....See if the youth are running from Jesus then they will be judge either by the Blood of Jesus Christ , or they will be judged in their death without Jesus ..... See the Christian parent may fail to take the authority with Jesus and His plan through prayer, or failing to dedicate the children to Christ, or fail to teach their children about the devil and his plan for their lives , and just condemn and control or being proud of their children which will blocking God out of His covenant for the parent and the children.........See the logic of the customs of this world will block God out ..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-06-2012, 09:17 AM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,651,035 times
Reputation: 7415
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Justice and fairness are not synonymous terms.

If God was fair then the answer to the psalmist would be "nobody" to this question:
Psalm 130:3
If you, O LORD, kept a record of sins, O Lord, who could stand?
If God was fair, there would be absolutly no reason why you are a believer Mike.
You had no special qualities.. no special cognitive awareness ... you were no less spiritually dead than anybody else. You had just as much the filth and stench of sin that made you just as undersirable as the filthy menstral rage God says the human race is. Isaiah 64:6

There is no exception to this:
Genesis 6:5-7 The LORD saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.

The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.

“I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.”

FYI ........... babies are part of " mankind"


P.S.
oh, for those who only accept KJV .. Here is what God revealed:
Genesis 6:5-7 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

The Lord regretted making human beings on the earth, and he was heartbroken.

So the Lord said, “I will wipe off of the land the human race that I’ve created: from human beings to livestock to the crawling things to the birds in the skies, because I regret I ever made them.”


Yes... babies are part of the "human race"




.
Psalm 99:4 The strength of the King loves justice; You have established equity (fairness, justice); You have executed justice and righteousness in Jacob.



Excerpt:
justice n. 1) fairness. 2) moral rightness. 3) a scheme or system of law in which every person receives his/her/its due from the system, including all rights, both natural and legal...
justice legal definition of justice. justice synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.

Excerpt:
WordNet Dictionary
Noun 1. justice - the quality of being just or fair
Synonyms: justness
Antonyms:
unjustness, injustice - the practice of being unjust or unfair
Justice - Definition of Justice by Webster's Online Dictionary


Excerpt:
justice - thesaurus entry

1 treatment of people that is fair and morally right
Synonyms or related words for this sense of justice

Fair behaviour and the quality of being fair and reasonable: justice, fairness, sportsmanship, legitimacy, a square deal, reasonableness, equity, tolerance, political correctness... more


a. the fact that something is reasonable and fair
Synonyms or related words for this sense of justice

Fair behaviour and the quality of being fair and reasonable: justice, fairness, sportsmanship, legitimacy, a square deal, reasonableness, equity, tolerance, political correctness... more
justice - synonyms or related words for justice - Macmillan Dictionary and Thesaurus


As you can see, justice and fairness are synonymous terms.


God's love was the motivation for providing salvation, but God's justice is what made salvation possible.

Eternal salvation was made possible because of God's justice, in which He judically imputed the personal sins of mankind to Christ on the cross, and because He judically imputes His own righteousness to those who believe on Christ.

On the basis of the cross, in justice or fairness God gives eternal life to those who come to Christ in response to the gospel.

In justice or fairness, God leaves in condemnation those who do not come to Christ for salvation.



But while God requires a non-meritorius volitional decision on the part of man in response to the gospel in order to have eternal life He also does not desire that any should perish. Therefore, because God is just or fair, He does not hold accountable those who are simply unable to make a volitional decision. That would include babies and severely mentally retarded individuals.


But believe what you want. And simply ignore the fact that the dictionary defines justice as fairness.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-06-2012, 09:40 AM
 
10,183 posts, read 10,549,080 times
Reputation: 3018
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
If you believe the Bible then believe this.

For if by the transgression of the one (Adam), death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. [/color]
Mike, you sly little devil, you!

You used a translation that changes Romans 5:18 just enough wipe out the universalist thrust of Paul's message. Your verse inserts "those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness" as code for "you have to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior before you will reign in life...."

The vast majority, in fact nearly ALL translations read like this:

Quote:
New International Version (©1984)
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Yes, Adam's one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ's one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone.

English Standard Version (©2001)
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

International Standard Version (©2008)
Consequently, just as one offense resulted in condemnation for everyone, so one act of righteousness results in justification and life for everyone.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
In like manner therefore, because of the offense of the one there was a guilty verdict to all the children of men, in the same way, because of the righteousness of The One there shall be the victory for Life to all the children of men.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Therefore, everyone was condemned through one failure, and everyone received God's life-giving approval through one verdict.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

American King James Version
Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came on all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came on all men to justification of life.

American Standard Version
So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Therefore, as by the offence of one, unto all men to condemnation; so also by the justice of one, unto all men to justification of life.

Darby Bible Translation
so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life.

English Revised Version
So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life.

Webster's Bible Translation
Therefore, as by the offense of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men to justification of life.

Weymouth New Testament
It follows then that just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which extends to the whole race, so also the result of a single decree of righteousness is a life-giving acquittal which extends to the whole race.

World English Bible
So then as through one trespass, all men were condemned; even so through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life.

Young's Literal Translation
So, then, as through one offence to all men it is to condemnation, so also through one declaration of 'Righteous' it is to all men to justification of life;
18 translations and NOT ONE states that a volitional action on our part---a conscious decision to accept Jesus--is needed to receive the free gift of life unto salvation as your translation states!!

A scholar as good as yourself knows this.

Why, Mike, WHY???

Last edited by thrillobyte; 10-06-2012 at 09:50 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top