Huge Flaw in This Age-of-Accountability Silliness (traditions, churches, ritual, pray)
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You used a translation that changes Romans 5:18 just enough wipe out the universalist thrust of Paul's message. Your verse inserts "those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness" as code for "you have to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior before you will reign in life...."
The vast majority, in fact nearly ALL translations read like this:
18 translations and NOT ONE states that a volitional action on our part---a conscious decision to accept Jesus--is needed to receive the free gift of life unto salvation as your translation states!!
A scholar as good as yourself knows this.
Why, Mike, WHY???
The verse is Romans 5:17. Not Romans 5:18. You are confusing the two verses. And there is no Universalist thrust to it. Paul did not promote Universalism.
I used the NASV translation.
Romans 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Roman's 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
The verse is Romans 5:17. Not Romans 5:18. You are confusing the two verses. And there is no Universalist thrust to it. Paul did not promote Universalism.
I used the NASV translation.
Romans 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Roman's 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
I agree that the age of accountability for children is a man's teaching and not God's.
Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Some people have memories when they were an infant. I do.
Anyway, getting back to the topic: does not our awareness come from God as He opens the ears to hear and the eyes to see the truth? If I can recollect memories of when I was an infant, who is to say that unborn babies cannot know the truth before they were born since God knows us before we were even formed in the womb?
Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. 6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
Psalm 139:1O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. 2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. 3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. 4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether. 5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. 6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it..... 13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. 14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. 15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them.... 23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: 24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the wayeverlasting.
Every soul that is created is accountable as I believe God is able to save the souls of the unborn by appearing to them in dreams or a vision because He knew them that wanted to be with God from those unborn babies that did not, because those babies that did not, had loved the darkness rather than come to the light to be reproved of their evil deeds or in this case, to be reproved of their sinful mindset to do evil if they were to be born.
If we acknowledged sin and the fallen state of our mother's womb, God creating us in sin can still make us to know truth in our inward parts for those He knows seeks Him and wants to be with Him from those that do not because they prefer their evil rather than to be with God and all that is good.
And no, it does not mean it is okay to have an abortion.
As others have stated, all are born in sin, and by nature enemies of God and objects of God's wrath. REmember the first commandment. Babies are born in unbelief. Note the following texts.
Eph 2:3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
Ps 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth,sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
But some of you think this is cruel to think or say this, but you have to remember, this is why the sacrament of Baptism is given to all and commanded for all, even little children. To be saved, one has to be born again/born from above by water and the spirit in the sacrament of Holy Baptism.
Jn 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
Jn 1:13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit
Ac 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Ac 2:39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call
Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, Tit 3:6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, Tit 3:7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.
Lastly, there is not one text in the entire Bible that can be used to justify teaching an "age of accountability". It is pure false doctrine, a doctrine of men, not God.
I agree that the age of accountability for children is a man's teaching and not God's.
Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Some people have memories when they were an infant. I do.
Anyway, getting back to the topic: does not our awareness come from God as He opens the ears to hear and the eyes to see the truth? If I can recollect memories of when I was an infant, who is to say that unborn babies cannot know the truth before they were born since God knows us before we were even formed in the womb?
Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. 6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
Psalm 139:1O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. 2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. 3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. 4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether. 5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. 6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it..... 13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. 14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. 15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them.... 23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: 24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the wayeverlasting.
Every soul that is created is accountable as I believe God is able to save the souls of the unborn by appearing to them in dreams or a vision because He knew them that wanted to be with God from those unborn babies that did not, because those babies that did not, had loved the darkness rather than come to the light to be reproved of their evil deeds or in this case, to be reproved of their sinful mindset to do evil if they were to be born.
If we acknowledged sin and the fallen state of our mother's womb, God creating us in sin can still make us to know truth in our inward parts for those He knows seeks Him and wants to be with Him from those that do not because they prefer their evil rather than to be with God and all that is good.
And no, it does not mean it is okay to have an abortion.
Did Paul hint that, like circumcision, baptism wasn't necessary for salvation?
Psalm 99:4 The strength of the King loves justice; You have established equity (fairness, justice); You have executed justice and righteousness in Jacob.
1 treatment of people that is fair and morally right
Synonyms or related words for this sense of justice
Fair behaviour and the quality of being fair and reasonable: justice, fairness, sportsmanship, legitimacy, a square deal, reasonableness, equity, tolerance, political correctness... more
a. the fact that something is reasonable and fair
Synonyms or related words for this sense of justice
As you can see, justice and fairness are synonymous terms.
God's love was the motivation for providing salvation, but God's justice is what made salvation possible.
Eternal salvation was made possible because of God's justice, in which He judically imputed the personal sins of mankind to Christ on the cross, and because He judically imputes His own righteousness to those who believe on Christ.
On the basis of the cross, in justice or fairness God gives eternal life to those who come to Christ in response to the gospel.
In justice or fairness, God leaves in condemnation those who do not come to Christ for salvation.
But while God requires a non-meritorius volitional decision on the part of man in response to the gospel in order to have eternal life He also does not desire that any should perish. Therefore, because God is just or fair, He does not hold accountable those who are simply unable to make a volitional decision. That would include babies and severely mentally retarded individuals.
But believe what you want. And simply ignore the fact that the dictionary defines justice as fairness.
So ... ??? what's the point? Trust a stupid dictionary over the intellegence of God's Word?
Look at how you're refuting scripture by calling God a liar with decision theology:
logic .."He does not hold accountable those who are simply unable to make a volitional decision."
Scripture " for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (there are no exceptions) Scripture " every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God." (there are no exceptions)
People do not make a "volitional decision" .. that is simply contrary to scripture. Decision theology is false.
Matthew 22:14
“For many are invited, but few are chosen.”
John 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last.
John 15:19
If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.
Acts 22:14
“Then he said: ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth.' "
Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight
1 Thessalonians 1:4
For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,
James 1:18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.
1 Peter 1:1-2 To God’s elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father
1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God
============================================
It is not by his justice were are saved ... that is simply not what scriptures teach:
Romans 3:24
and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
Romans 11:5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.
Titus 3:7
so that, having been justified by hisgrace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.
So ... ??? what's the point? Trust a stupid dictionary over the intellegence of God's Word?
Look at how you're refuting scripture by calling God a liar with decision theology:
logic .."He does not hold accountable those who are simply unable to make a volitional decision."
Scripture " for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (there are no exceptions) Scripture " every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God." (there are no exceptions)
People do not make a "volitional decision" .. that is simply contrary to scripture. Decision theology is false.
Matthew 22:14
“For many are invited, but few are chosen.”
John 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last.
John 15:19
If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.
Acts 22:14
“Then he said: ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth.' "
Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight
1 Thessalonians 1:4
For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,
James 1:18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.
1 Peter 1:1-2 To God’s elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father
1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God
============================================
It is not by his justice were are saved ... that is simply not what scriptures teach:
Romans 3:24
and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
Romans 11:5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.
Titus 3:7
so that, having been justified by hisgrace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.
Just call yourself a Calvinist Twin.Spin. But what a strange Calvinist, since you believe that the believer can lose his salvation. However, like the Calvinists, you don't understand that God chose based on His foreknowledge of who would use their volition in response to the gospel to come to Christ. You can't seem to understand that an invitation can be accepted or can be refused, and that means choice - a decision. But once a person has responded to the gospel and been saved, he cannot undo his salvation. If God chose some to be saved apart from man's volitional response to the gospel, that would mean that God also chose some to spend eternity in the lake of fire without giving them a chance to be saved. And that would contradict the fact that God desires that all men be saved and does not desire that any should perish.
Words have meaning Twin.Spin. Justice means fairness and is so defined in a dictionary. God is always fair, always just in His dealings with mankind. God found a way to provide salvation for man in keeping with His righteousness. And God's justice always executes the demands of His righteousness. And that is what is revealed in God's word. Because of the atoning work of Christ on the cross, anyone who chooses to accept the invitation to come to Christ has eternal life.
Rev. 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
Anyone who wishes may come to Christ in response to the gospel. Anyone who is thirsty and wishes to may take the water of life without cost.
Last edited by Michael Way; 10-07-2012 at 08:04 AM..
Just call yourself a Calvinist Twin.Spin. But what a strange Calvinist, since you believe that the believer can lose his salvation. However, like the Calvinists, you don't understand that God chose based on His foreknowledge of who would use their volition in response to the gospel to come to Christ. You can't seem to understand that an invitation can be accepted or can be refused, and that means choice - a decision. But once a person has responded to the gospel and been saved, he cannot undo his salvation. If God chose some to be saved apart from man's volitional response to the gospel, that would mean that God also chose some to spend eternity in the lake of fire without giving them a chance to be saved. And that would contradict the fact that God desires that all men be saved and does not desire that any should perish.
Words have meaning Twin.Spin. Justice means fairness and is so defined in a dictionary. God is always fair, always just in His dealings with mankind. God found a way to provide salvation for man in keeping with His righteousness. And God's justice always executes the demands of His righteousness. And that is what is revealed in God's word. Because of the atoning work of Christ on the cross, anyone who chooses to accept the invitation to come to Christ has eternal life.
Mike,
The reason it may be "strange" to you is probably you do not really know "Lutheranism" like you think you do.
Relying on human logic (via decision theology) is in clear opposition to Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
Fact is (whether you're Reformed or not) you reject Ephesians 2:8-9.
You're inserting verbage where God does not.
God said: For it is bygrace you have been saved ....
.......not: "For it is by fairness\justice you have been saved" ....
God said: "and this not from yourselves"
.......not: "and your volitional response to the gospel"
God said: " it is the gift of God"
.......not: "it is the gift of man based on some special qualities"
God said: "not by works, so that no one can boast."
.......... : Decision theology makes coming to faith "by works" ( your volitional response )
.......... : Decision theology boasts of itself
.......... : Decision theology makes itself the "right arm" of salvation ( a co-savior)
Yes, words do have meaning.
"All have sinned and fall short"
"every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God."
refutes the statement
"He does not hold accountable those who are simply unable to make a volitional decision."
Decision theology is a false teaching. Which it is not surprising the Decision theology normally comes from the same audience that promotes Millennialism, that rejects Baptism saves, that rejects the "is" in "this is my body\blood".
As God said:
2 Peter 3:16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, astheydotheotherScriptures, to their own destruction.
Did Paul hint that, like circumcision, baptism wasn't necessary for salvation?
Not sure how you got that topic from my post, but Paul did more than just hint that: he had to openly declare it so that believers would get off of that ego tripping mania about who they were baptized by.
1 Corinthians 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. KJV
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Well said. Can't agree more.
