If 90% of people will end up in hell, is it better that God never created us? (Lutherans, Mormon)

[Enow]

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

Fundamentalists will tell you (with a straight face, I might add) that it is to God's glory that He sends these billions of people into fiery torment for all eternity.

John Hagee: "Family members will look down on their loved ones burning in torment and they will praise God, shouting, 'You are just, O Lord!' "

How is it different from the hardened criminal that refuse to repent of raping and murdering children and society says to its judicial system that they are just in keeping them locked up forever?

It is unfathomable for us to perceive how evil a person can get that they would prefer their evil deeds rather than live as a loving neighbor in society, but we cannot escape that fact in reality that evil exists, and some are without repentance. It is just as unfathomable that a sinner in hell is someone refusing to repent of their evil deeds rather than live with the goodness and holiness of God and to be able to live as His in loving others simply by believing the Good News in Jesus Christ.

But, no. They do not want that. They want nothing to do with God or anything that is good of Him for that matter.

If we are trusting God to put an end to sin and to death along with Satan and his angels, then unrepentant sinners can stay in hell and the coming lake of fire where they belong so that God can keep His promise that sin and death and all that is not of His goodness has been dealt with forever so that we would never be seperated from God and all that is good ever again.

If oblivion was the second death instead of the lake of fire, then doubt would come. If a person ceased to exist then one wondered if he ever did and if God had rendered His judgment. So in retrospect, for God's promises of good to come, then God's judgment has to stand just as visibly otherwise His judgment would cease to exist if those that are judged ceased to exist. So as God's judgment stands, so does His promises.

So the next time people complain about how unjust or how unfair God is, feel free to petition the court to have an unrepentant raping murdering criminal stay in your home instead of pining away the rest of his life in jail.

[Pleroo]

Originally Posted by Enow

So the next time people complain about how unjust or how unfair God is, feel free to petition the court to have an unrepentant raping murdering criminal stay in your home instead of pining away the rest of his life in jail.

So, essentially then, you are saying that the God you believe in acts in the same way as our current court system and is no more capable of leading people to a change of heart/mind, or of healing them than it is?

[Enow]

Originally Posted by Pleroo

So, essentially then, you are saying that the God you believe in acts in the same way as our current court system ....

Moreso, because whereas the court cannot discern the thoughts nor the intents of the heart, God can.

Originally Posted by Pleroo

....and is no more capable of leading people to a change of heart/mind, or of healing them than it is?

God can change those that He knows are seeking Him from those that are not of sinners that prefer their evil deeds rather than come to the light to be reproved of them.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

This is why Jesus taught His disciples this guideline so that they do not keep preaching to those that do not want to hear it. Of course, that is only towards individual witnessing and not street witnessing whereas those that do not want to hear it, can walk away.

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. 7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

That is not to say that at another time, the individual that rejected the gospel will not seek him later on in this life to be saved, but believers that witness are to be led by the Lord in doing so as He is the One causing the increase and not them beating it into them that do not want to hear it.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

So an example of God knowing who is seeking Him from those that are not can be see n here below.

Acts 16:6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia, 7 After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not. 8 And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas.
9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us. 10 And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.

So, yes. God is able to change those that seek Him in this life and as for those that seek Him not at all but died for not believing in the name of the Son of God, they were condemned already, because the wages of sin is death as they had prefered their evil deeds rather than come to the light to be reproved.

[Pleroo]

Originally Posted by Enow

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Your belief, then, is that God only draws those who are seeking?

And what of the words of Christ ... "And I, if I be lifted up, WILL draw ALL men to myself?"

Who is being exluded from the drawing here? No one. So why is that you think God only draws some and not others? And if God is drawing all, why do you think God will fail in accomplishing this since as you said:

"...believers that witness are to be led by the Lord in doing so as He is the One causing the increase "

???

[jojo-50]

Originally Posted by Trimac20

.

The most important questions EVERYONE should ask, is WHY would a LOVING God create a “Hell” ,(a place will the “wicked” are tortured), anyway? What was it that many don’t understand, when it came to Jehovah God telling the first couple what’ll happen to them if they disobey him ,(Gen. 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die). He didn’t say they would be tortured in Hell. he said they would die, and they did! Another proof that the teachings of a hellfire is untrue, comes from God’s words here….(Rom. 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. and Rom. 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin).

What kind of loving God would tell us our sins are paid for once we die. Yet turn right around and send us to a place of torture….because we sinned? Remember humans was to live forever, that was a gift. But because the first couple sinned, they took that gift from all humans to come, This is why we die. Jehovah God sent Jesus along with teaching us God’s words, (John 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you). To also die for our sins, which means will may gain eternal life, (Ephe. 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace).

Doing research on the origins of a hellfire, would explain how it got into Christian teachings, though many refuse to do so. Many are show these words from Jesus, (Matt. 5:29,30 and Matt. 5:21,22), Not truly understanding what he meant. Jesus WAS with his Father when man was first created. He would KNOW if his Father planted a “hellfire”, and like his Father, Jesus isn’t a liar. And he certainly wouldn’t go against his Father’s words. So why would Jesus teach a Hellfire, if his Father NEVER did? some said God created one later. If that was true, his MANY followers, like Isaiah, Daniel, Moses, and even those once Jesus died, would teach a hellfire. Now..Jesus said this…(Matt. 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels). Question!... isn’t the teachings…demons LIVE in a “hellfire?” so what?... demons will also soon be tortured in the same way, THEY are said to be torturing dead humans?, it makes NO sense!

Also the “SOULS’ of the dead isn’t floating around, being tortured in a “hellfire” because the “SOUL”…isn’t a separate being from a dead body. In fact!.. the SOUL IS a living body, (Gen. 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul). Jesus showed what a SOUL was , (Luke 12:19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry). Though false teachings of a soul being the ghost of the dead. I’ve NEVER heard those who believe the dead is still around ,speak of them eating. Though I never understood why not!.. if they are said to feel pain, and other emotions. They should also be hungry,... just saying!

Here’s two more scriptures of Jehovah God’s servants speaking on the word hell… (Psa. 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there). If hell was a place of torture, and obviously David knew it wasn’t!, why would he say what he said? When someone say to “make my bed”, they usually mean literally, or to sleep. Or... imply to one you brought it on yourself, so deal with it! In this case, David meant to fall asleep in dead. This is how the Heavenly being sees death ,(Matt.[SIZE=3][/SIZE]27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose).

And Jonah, (Jonah 2:1,2 Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice), He thought he would die there. he didn’t speak of seeing “demons” OR a ”hellfire”, if he died there, it would have been his grave. Revelation 20:10-15, speaks of the beast , (satan), and false teachers being tormented in the lakes if fire forever. Death and HELL also were cast into the lakes of fire. Again this scriptures showed hell couldn’t be a fiery place, because it was said to be thrown into one. And Jehovah God NEVER said he will torture those who didn’t serve him, they would just DIE!, just as the first couple did.

God and his son, as well as all the Angels, KNOWS humans understand,…or should, what fire does, which is destroys. The lakes of fire is symbolic, it just means TOTAL destruction. All these the book of Rev. mention, will be wiped of the face of the earth. God knows they wouldn’t literally be tortured mentally, because they wouldn’t even know their gone! JUST like the dead doesn’t know they are gone, (Psa. 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish). So this would make the teachings of them being in a hellfire, or visiting the living a LIE! and where did God use percentage when determining which goes where? Why would believers even believe a lie satan started? Many should already know he had men play with Jesus words. He also knows many would believe what Jesus said. Well , …rephrase!... what he wants many to believe. Because Jesus showed he’s not the Father, and many still call Jesus a liar! We really need to stop following satan’s teachings, it could cost us our life. peace

[Enow]

Originally Posted by Pleroo

Your belief, then, is that God only draws those who are seeking?

That is what the Bible says. It does not say that God draws those that prefer their evil deeds rather than come to the light to be reproved of them.

And what of the words of Christ ... "And I, if I be lifted up, WILL draw ALL men to myself?"

Who is being exluded from the drawing here? No one. So why is that you think God only draws some and not others?

Note the word "if". It isn't toward Him being lifted up wherein testifying of His crucifixion, because that was done so there is no "if" about that. Jesus said that about the type of death He would die of.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

It is by signifying His crucifixion is how He will draw all men to Himself: it does not mean that all men will be drawn to believe in Him: hence the use of the word "if".

And if God is drawing all, why do you think God will fail in accomplishing this...

There is no failure when God knows that those sinners prefer their evil deeds rather than come to Him to be delivered from the bondage to sin and to death.

since as you said:

"...believers that witness are to be led by the Lord in doing so as He is the One causing the increase "
???

I was applying that verse in reference to those believers that "harrass" those that do not want to hear the gospel or the truth. Believers has to recognize that it is God working here and that it is not on them to argue the point when it is obvious that they are not listening or just unable to hear because they love evil more than God at that time.

There is always hope for them on down the road from now, but after they have died, having never come to believe even in the name of Jesus Christ, then judgment has come for they had died in unbelief and in sin as God did not draw them unto the Son, because they prefer their evil deeds rather than come to the light.

Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Those that do not look to Him shall appear with sin unto damnation.

[augiedogie]

That people go to hell is their own fault. They reject their creator, they reject the medicine of the Gospel that is offered to them. It shows the true evil of people that they not only reject God, and reject their own opportunity to be saved, but would also deny to others the chance and enjoyment of eternal life. Just like the Pharisees in Jesus day.

Lk 11:52 "Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering."

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by Prairieparson

That people go to hell is their own fault. They reject their creator, they reject the medicine of the Gospel that is offered to them. It shows the true evil of people that they not only reject God, and reject their own opportunity to be saved, but would also deny to others the chance and enjoyment of eternal life. Just like the Pharisees in Jesus day.

Lk 11:52 "Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering."

Can you tell me how you can reject what you do not know ?.

[Pleroo]

Originally Posted by Enow

That is what the Bible says. It does not say that God draws those that prefer their evil deeds rather than come to the light to be reproved of them.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.


Tell me, my friend ... have you ever done evil? Haven't we all? Then why do you think that this passage is not speaking of you? And why, then, do you think that God drew you since your beliefs say that you should not have been drawn?


But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


Have you, do you, do things that are truth, things that are wrought by God? Because according to this passage, those are the people who come to the light. And why do you assume that not every single person on the face of the earth has also done things that are "truth", that are wrought by God? Why do you assume that not every single person will be drawn to God in light of this passage, just as John 12 says that ALL will be drawn.

Note the word "if". It isn't toward Him being lifted up wherein testifying of His crucifixion, because that was done so there is no "if" about that. Jesus said that about the type of death He would die of.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

It is by signifying His crucifixion is how He will draw all men to Himself: it does not mean that all men will be drawn to believe in Him: hence the use of the word "if".



There is no failure when God knows that those sinners prefer their evil deeds rather than come to Him to be delivered from the bondage to sin and to death.

Sorry, I do not understand what you are trying to say here. As you said, there is no "if" about it: no if about the "lifting", so no if about the "drawing".

I was applying that verse in reference to those believers that "harrass" those that do not want to hear the gospel or the truth. Believers has to recognize that it is God working here and that it is not on them to argue the point when it is obvious that they are not listening or just unable to hear because they love evil more than God at that time.

There is always hope for them on down the road from now, but after they have died, having never come to believe even in the name of Jesus Christ, then judgment has come for they had died in unbelief and in sin as God did not draw them unto the Son, because they prefer their evil deeds rather than come to the light.

I am aware to what you were applying it, but it doesn't change the fact that since Christ said that ALL are drawn and God is the one who gives the increase, then there is no reason to think God will fail in accomplishing to heal all people.

Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Those that do not look to Him shall appear with sin unto damnation.

Going back to the first point in this post. Why do you think ALL will not look? Christ promised that ALL will be drawn and it is God alone who "provides the increase" so it sounds like a done deal to me.

[Pleroo]

Originally Posted by pcamps

Can you tell me how you can reject what you do not know ?.

And how will people recognize God/Love when that Image is so completely distorted by doctrines like Eternal Torment?