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Old 10-04-2012, 05:34 PM
 
Location: The Other California
4,255 posts, read 4,709,121 times
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The Church has always had a bad Catholic problem. Many great defenders of the Church were bad Catholics, such as Charlemagne and Philip II. Some popes were notoriously bad Catholics. Entertainers like Bing Crosby and Dean Martin were bad Catholics. Writers like Graham Greene and Evelyn Waugh and Oscar Wilde were bad Catholics. Etc.

I call them bad Catholics because they set bad examples of Christian behavior. There's a reason they're not on the roster of canonized saints, no matter how many churches they built, no matter how many Christmas carols they recorded, and no matter how many people were positively influenced by their life's work.

I've forgotten the name of the English protestant writer who observed that Catholics in his country tended to live badly... but they died well. And they never dreamed of changing the Church.

Today's bad Catholics are a different breed. They often live badly too (though not always), but they lack the humility to submit their intellect and will to the Church's teaching and discipline. Rather than struggle to live up to the Gospel, they want a watered down Gospel that is much less demanding. They want to the Church to conform to their own ideas, rather than the reverse, and they form angry groups to agitate for these changes, as though the Church were nothing but a human political organization. Even bishops, priests and religious are counted among them.

I guess I don't really understand this mentality. If you don't believe that the Catholic Church promulgates the authentic truth of Jesus Christ in its fullness, then what's keeping you from joining the Episcopalians down the road? The Catholic Church is never going to ordain women priests, or approve of homosexuality, or change its teaching on marriage and divorce, or compromise on abortion and euthanasia. You can be Catholic and struggle with these things, certainly, but if you reject them outright and refuse to admit that possibly it is you, and not the Church, that needs to change - why remain Catholic?

 
Old 10-04-2012, 05:49 PM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 3,036,809 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post

>>I guess I don't really understand this mentality. If you don't believe that the Catholic Church promulgates the authentic truth of Jesus Christ in its fullness, then what's keeping you from joining the Episcopalians down the road? The Catholic Church is never going to ordain women priests, or approve of homosexuality, or change its teaching on marriage and divorce, or compromise on abortion and euthanasia. You can be Catholic and struggle with these things, certainly, but if you reject them outright and refuse to admit that possibly it is you, and not the Church, that needs to change - why remain Catholic?<<
RESPONSE:

Do you thnink that is why so many Catholics now are leaving the church?

Perhaps they are "testing everything" (St. Paul)?
 
Old 10-04-2012, 05:55 PM
 
Location: The Other California
4,255 posts, read 4,709,121 times
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People leave the Church today for lots of reasons, but at the root of it is the heresy of Modernism which unfortunately afflicts the Church everywhere. When, in 1967, the Vatican dropped the requirement that priests take the Oath Against Modernism things went downhill fast.

Let me clarify: people aren't leaving the Church to get away from Modernism, but rather Modernism in the Church has undermined their faith, and so they leave due to a lack of faith.
 
Old 10-04-2012, 06:50 PM
 
14,752 posts, read 28,499,674 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post
The Church has always had a bad Catholic problem. Many great defenders of the Church were bad Catholics, such as Charlemagne and Philip II. Some popes were notoriously bad Catholics. Entertainers like Bing Crosby and Dean Martin were bad Catholics. Writers like Graham Greene and Evelyn Waugh and Oscar Wilde were bad Catholics. Etc.

I guess I don't really understand this mentality. If you don't believe that the Catholic Church promulgates the authentic truth of Jesus Christ in its fullness, then what's keeping you from joining the Episcopalians down the road? The Catholic Church is never going to ordain women priests, or approve of homosexuality, or change its teaching on marriage and divorce, or compromise on abortion and euthanasia. You can be Catholic and struggle with these things, certainly, but if you reject them outright and refuse to admit that possibly it is you, and not the Church, that needs to change - why remain Catholic?
Wow. Just wow. Was it the Rio de Janeiro dental floss bikini picture, which you deemed to be sinful, that brought on this thread?

Bad Catholics: throw in Frank Sinatra and Mel Gibson, and Mafiosos with chapels in their mansions. Throw in some of the nuns and priests who taught me - one nun with a face nothing short of demonic who used to jab kids with a pointer and caused parents to pull out their kids in favor of HEALTHIER public schools ... and a shiny faced 35-ish priest in high school, who had some make-work admin. role, with his door open on the main hallway, causing the students themselves to remark that "gee, it's like a revolving door of jocks in there BSing with him." Stop being so self-righteous, when the members of the religious organization themselves are flawed.

About the issues you mention:
a) women priests - don't think much about it; I'd have to give it serious thought, since it would mean making changes in seminary education and have some serious structural implications
b) homosexuality - brush up on your science and/or developmental psychology studies
c) marriage and divorce - many marriages are shams, for money and other ulterior motives, yet you see the Stepford crowd at Mass making an appearance and priests love them, and their money. Also, you should get divorced if your spouse is a rotten person and people DO change; furthermore, a "test drive" is recommendable and can avert a divorce/annulment down the road
d) abortion - if a woman is raped and/or under other circumstances, she should NOT have to carry that child - no way
e) euthanasia - don't agree with it

Cafeteria Catholics exist because the Church expects people to be robots, and not human. Is this the old "narrow gate" admonishment? Sounds like it. If you're asking me, I ain't going Episcopalian because I'm Italian, but I often wonder if the Greek Orthodox are less uptight - and Greek Festivals are usually awesome!

Last edited by robertpolyglot; 10-04-2012 at 07:15 PM..
 
Old 10-04-2012, 07:12 PM
 
14,752 posts, read 28,499,674 times
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Oh, yeah, I found it interesting how Cardinal Mahoney of LA got into his Oldsmobile and schlepped to Beverly Hills to be at Frank Sinatra's bedside before he died. Money talks and bulls hit walks.
 
Old 10-04-2012, 07:51 PM
 
869 posts, read 664,356 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertpolyglot View Post
Wow. Just wow. Was it the Rio de Janeiro dental floss bikini picture, which you deemed to be sinful, that brought on this thread?

Bad Catholics: throw in Frank Sinatra and Mel Gibson, and Mafiosos with chapels in their mansions. Throw in some of the nuns and priests who taught me - one nun with a face nothing short of demonic who used to jab kids with a pointer and caused parents to pull out their kids in favor of HEALTHIER public schools ... and a shiny faced 35-ish priest in high school, who had some make-work admin. role, with his door open on the main hallway, causing the students themselves to remark that "gee, it's like a revolving door of jocks in there BSing with him." Stop being so self-righteous, when the members of the religious organization themselves are flawed.

About the issues you mention:
a) women priests - don't think much about it; I'd have to give it serious thought, since it would mean making changes in seminary education and have some serious structural implications
b) homosexuality - brush up on your science and/or developmental psychology studies
c) marriage and divorce - many marriages are shams, for money and other ulterior motives, yet you see the Stepford crowd at Mass making an appearance and priests love them, and their money. Also, you should get divorced if your spouse is a rotten person and people DO change; furthermore, a "test drive" is recommendable and can avert a divorce/annulment down the road
d) abortion - if a woman is raped and/or under other circumstances, she should NOT have to carry that child - no way
e) euthanasia - don't agree with it

Cafeteria Catholics exist because the Church expects people to be robots, and not human. Is this the old "narrow gate" admonishment? Sounds like it. If you're asking me, I ain't going Episcopalian because I'm Italian, but I often wonder if the Greek Orthodox are less uptight - and Greek Festivals are usually awesome!
Quit talking about it and go for it because it's getting boring. Something about a pot.

I think you would become a better Catholic if you found out what you lost.
 
Old 10-04-2012, 08:02 PM
 
Location: The Other California
4,255 posts, read 4,709,121 times
Reputation: 1527
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertpolyglot View Post
Cafeteria Catholics exist because the Church expects people to be robots, and not human. Is this the old "narrow gate" admonishment? Sounds like it. If you're asking me, I ain't going Episcopalian because I'm Italian, but I often wonder if the Greek Orthodox are less uptight - and Greek Festivals are usually awesome!
I see that you missed the whole point of my post - contrasting yesterday's bad Catholics, who were admirably loyal to the Church despite their sins and failures, with today's bad Catholics who are perpetually agitated because the Church won't change with the times or whatever. Instead, you decided to use this post as another opportunity to complain. It seems that rage and reading comprehension are incompatible.
 
Old 10-04-2012, 08:34 PM
 
Location: The Other California
4,255 posts, read 4,709,121 times
Reputation: 1527
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertpolyglot View Post
If you're asking me, I ain't going Episcopalian because I'm Italian ...
Don't let that stop you. The Episcopal Church has Italian bishops now!



Quote:
Originally Posted by robertpolyglot View Post
... but I often wonder if the Greek Orthodox are less uptight - and Greek Festivals are usually awesome!
The Greek Orthodox might work for you. Except they are even less Italian than the Episcopalians. They also tend to be homophobic. And you can only get married three times in the Orthodox Church, so they do have standards.
 
Old 10-04-2012, 09:17 PM
 
14,752 posts, read 28,499,674 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodToBeHome View Post
I think you would become a better Catholic if you found out what you lost.
Right now is not a good time. Thank Facebook for rekindling the "great" memories of Catholic education, which are an extension of the religion. And, no, nothing "newsworthy" happened to me while in the educational system that makes me feel this way. But I am capable of observing and analyzing situations.
 
Old 10-04-2012, 09:18 PM
 
14,752 posts, read 28,499,674 times
Reputation: 8778
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post
Don't let that stop you. The Episcopal Church has Italian bishops now!

The Greek Orthodox might work for you. Except they are even less Italian than the Episcopalians. They also tend to be homophobic. And you can only get married three times in the Orthodox Church, so they do have standards.
Ok, so I'll find a not too WASPy Episcopal parish and then attend the annual Greek festival for the music and food, if that's what you recommend. Also, a person can be reasonably liberal and NOT support same-sex marriage. I thought the link was just about an Italian bishop and not his stand on a more controversial issue. Deal with it. Unless you go to some ultra-conservative church, most Catholics are "cafeteria," and some are way more liberal than me.
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