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I am slowly but surely starting to make my way back to universalism. It's hard to deny the message that Paul conveys in two separate epistles but tying them together makes it look very "universal". I am persuaded that Paul, indeed was a universalist--that he believed that all men would eventually be reconciled to the Father. Here are the scriptures:
"Consequently, just as Adam's one sin brings condemnation for all, so Christ's one act of righteousness brings to all justification with God and a new life. But each man in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when He comes, those who belong to Him. 24 Then comes those at the end [of the line], when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority and power."
The picture Paul paints is pretty clear: just as "all" pantas were brought under sin by Adam, so "all" pantas shall be brought to righteousness and given eternal life by Christ. But everyone in their own order: first, Christ, then His "elect", finally those at the end of the line (unsaved) who are brought under His dominion, authority and power.
The critical things to note here are that Paul uses the exact same Greek word for "all", pantas which plainly means everyone (not a select few). Also Paul ties no activity on the part of man to achieve this righteousness; it's all accomplished by Christ's redemptive work. Finally, in Corinthians "the end" telos which Strong defines as "the last in any succession or series" -- like a line of people: Christ is first in line, behind Him are His elect, and in the same line but at the back of it are the remaining people, which can only be the unsaved.
Sounds clear as crystal to me.
Now I am perfectly aware that elsewhere in Romans Paul states that belief in Christ is essential to salvation. I don't say that in this one verse Paul is trying to negate our responsibility, but I think the thrust of Paul's statement in these two verses is that all men eventually are brought under Christ's dominion and authority in their own order and in their own time, whether here on earth (the elect) or through a successions of aionions (eons) until everything God purposed to do from eternity is accomplished and God is all in all. Then comes the restitution of all things, including the new heaven and new earth where all dwell under the authority of the Father.
To me this makes God look more like the all-powerful victorious God we want to believe in, rather than the feeble failure who is at the mercy of man's free will and who must send 90% of humanity to hell because He was unable to save them. What a pitiful God the fundamentalists embrace.
Do you get the same impression after reading John 3?
I assume you're referring to 3:16 "...shall not perish but have eternal life".
I think, in fairness, I shouldn't have said "What a pitiful God Fundamentalists embrace". Sometimes I get carried away and I apologize. But in fairness to fundamenalists they have a set of verses they stand on and that's okay. So do annihilationists, and I am leaving annihilationism slowly but surely as I study Paul and investigate whether there's enough evidence to warrant belief that he was a universalist, which I think there is.
So a Christian has to pick their position and stand on their scripture so that when they stand before God they can say with honesty in their heart, "Lord, I believed you would save all men based on these words You spoke in Your holy scriptures " or "Lord, I believed you would condemn all non-believers to eternal flames based on these words You spoke in Your holy scriptures.
I've come to believe and accept after countless threads that anyone has the ability to defend their position based on scripture so, again, I regret things I have said in the past and would have changed my OP here if the edit button were still active.
I am slowly but surely starting to make my way back to universalism. It's hard to deny the message that Paul conveys in two separate epistles but tying them together makes it look very "universal". I am persuaded that Paul, indeed was a universalist--that he believed that all men would eventually be reconciled to the Father. Here are the scriptures:
"Consequently, just as Adam's one sin brings condemnation for all, so Christ's one act of righteousness brings to all justification with God and a new life. But each man in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when He comes, those who belong to Him. 24 Then comes those at the end [of the line], when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority and power."
The picture Paul paints is pretty clear: just as "all" pantas were brought under sin by Adam, so "all" pantas shall be brought to righteousness and given eternal life by Christ. But everyone in their own order: first, Christ, then His "elect", finally those at the end of the line (unsaved) who are brought under His dominion, authority and power.
The critical things to note here are that Paul uses the exact same Greek word for "all", pantas which plainly means everyone (not a select few). Also Paul ties no activity on the part of man to achieve this righteousness; it's all accomplished by Christ's redemptive work. Finally, in Corinthians "the end" telos which Strong defines as "the last in any succession or series" -- like a line of people: Christ is first in line, behind Him are His elect, and in the same line but at the back of it are the remaining people, which can only be the unsaved.
Sounds clear as crystal to me.
Now I am perfectly aware that elsewhere in Romans Paul states that belief in Christ is essential to salvation. I don't say that in this one verse Paul is trying to negate our responsibility, but I think the thrust of Paul's statement in these two verses is that all men eventually are brought under Christ's dominion and authority in their own order and in their own time, whether here on earth (the elect) or through a successions of aionions (eons) until everything God purposed to do from eternity is accomplished and God is all in all. Then comes the restitution of all things, including the new heaven and new earth where all dwell under the authority of the Father.
To me this makes God look more like the all-powerful victorious God we want to believe in, rather than the feeble failure who is at the mercy of man's free will and who must send 90% of humanity to hell because He was unable to save them. What a pitiful God the fundamentalists embrace.
I love it! your geting it Thrillobyte. What is interesting is that point that you said about God being all-powerful. The thing I came to realize as I learned more and more that universlism is true is that God really is ALL-Powerful. He became more powerful to me than what I had known before. Interesting to see you understanding that as well.
To me this makes God look more like the all-powerful victorious God we want to believe in, rather than the feeble failure who is at the mercy of man's free will and who must send 90% of humanity to hell because He was unable to save them. What a pitiful God the fundamentalists embrace.
And if there was only those three verses from God ( Romans 5:18 + 1 Corinthians 15:23-24) then you might have a legitimate conclusion.
But .. the age old heresy of antinomianism ( from the Greek ἀντί, "against" + νόμος, "law" + -ism ) is no less offensive to the truth, which bty is the basis of Universalism places it's hope on.
And were told that the horror of those who think that Jesus was hallucinating in verses like Matthew 25 takes place. Yes, as quick as lightening the satanical lie of universalism will be revealed.
I can only think of how, if I had children, I'd want them to think I was the very best dad in the world; that if they betrayed me I could never stop loving them for their treachery; that parents have a sense of justice too, but a parent's love for their children so powerfully overwhelms that sense of justice; that no parent in their right mind could send their own children to a torture chamber for eternity for what comparatively would be the most minor infraction against them; that parents who do that kind of thing have their children taken away from them, are branded the worst, sickest kinds of parents by society, and are severely punished with incarceration; that the worst criminals in prison have a sense of justice put in them by God that parents who have abused their children should be done away with in the worst possible manner---that even the most heinous criminals realize instinctively that locking up a child and torturing them is the greatest evil someone can commit.
And some of us don't even blink at the thought of God doing this to His own children, and some of us are even sick enough to scream joyously, "You are just, O Lord".
What has man done to God's good name? The thought is just too horrifying for me to even try to comprehend. I literally get sick to my stomach thinking that people believe that a loving God/Parent could do such things to His children under the guise of "His justice must be satisfied even if it means having to override His love". This kind of thing cannot make sense to anyone with a rational mind.
I assume you're referring to 3:16 "...shall not perish but have eternal life".
I think, in fairness, I shouldn't have said "What a pitiful God Fundamentalists embrace". Sometimes I get carried away and I apologize. But in fairness to fundamenalists they have a set of verses they stand on and that's okay. So do annihilationists, and I am leaving annihilationism slowly but surely as I study Paul and investigate whether there's enough evidence to warrant belief that he was a universalist, which I think there is.
So a Christian has to pick their position and stand on their scripture so that when they stand before God they can say with honesty in their heart, "Lord, I believed you would save all men based on these words You spoke in Your holy scriptures " or "Lord, I believed you would condemn all non-believers to eternal flames based on these words You spoke in Your holy scriptures.
I've come to believe and accept after countless threads that anyone has the ability to defend their position based on scripture so, again, I regret things I have said in the past and would have changed my OP here if the edit button were still active.
...just negate every other passage in Scripture that teaches us otherwise thrill.....just keep hanging on to what you want to believe instead.
...sad.
Verna, I will never, but never....
BUT NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!
go back to believing that God will send 99% of humanity into eternal flames or annihilate them.
God either saves 1% (estimate of true Christ-following Christians) or He saves 100%. There is no in between. If you're happy with the idea that God could either send 100's of billions of people to the worst kind of torture imaginable or simply annihilate them out of existence, then run with it. I cannot.
How any clear-thinking person cannot see that is an absolute, unequivocal failure on God's part to make good on His promise "That the world through Him might be saved" is completely beyond my sense of reason.
My greatest objection to the logic of eternal torment is that we expect better from a God of the universe. We should expect no less than 100% success. Even .00001% failure, let alone 99% failure, would be less than perfection. I expect 100% success from a God as perfect and powerful as our God and I believe that's what Paul and the other apostles were trying to get across. I've come to believe that the 99 sheep + the 1 lost, in some mysterious way, is symbolic of 100% of humanity in Jesus' loving care.
That's what I believe. As Betsy is fond of saying........FINAL ANSWER!!!!!!!!
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