U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-08-2012, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,706,353 times
Reputation: 842

Advertisements

Quote:
Matthew 25 is not the only time that Jesus spoke to the damnation of the unbeliever
Matthew 25 does not speak about the damnation of the unbeliever but the judgment of the wrong-doer, have you even read my argumentation?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-08-2012, 04:09 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,822 posts, read 9,808,279 times
Reputation: 1300
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Jesus may have called them "children of the devil" when He was on earth, but that in no way implies that He intends to let them remain "children of the devil".

"the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men."

This is not rocket science, twin. Just keep say the above enough times until the meaning starts to kick in. It will, if you let the Holy Spirit guide you.

It doesn't get any more "black and white" than this.
But this had already been established as "black and white"
Romans 2:8
But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger
thus understanding and application that you quoted Romans 5:18
"the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men."
is not what you wish for it to be.

It's a distortion of Romans 5:18 by deliberatly leaving out \ ignoring other scriptures .... and you know that.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-08-2012, 04:26 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,822 posts, read 9,808,279 times
Reputation: 1300
Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
Matthew 25 does not speak about the damnation of the unbeliever but the judgment of the wrong-doer, have you even read my argumentation?
Yea... and to me you're intentionally mis-reading it to make it not say what is clearly said by Christ.
The above is just yet another example of such deliberate mis-reading.

[1] Matthew 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

[2] Matthew 25:41 "“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels"

[3] Matthew 25:30 " And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ "
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-08-2012, 07:13 PM
 
10,178 posts, read 10,538,351 times
Reputation: 3015
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
But this had already been established as "black and white"
Romans 2:8
But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger
thus understanding and application that you quoted Romans 5:18
"the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men."
is not what you wish for it to be.

It's a distortion of Romans 5:18 by deliberately leaving out \ ignoring other scriptures .... and you know that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RuralMissioanry8080192 View Post
It's amazing what kind of theology one can roll for themselves when they only pick and choose a few verses out of context.
This is why I used the noun-adjective, madness. It is sheer madness for anyone to expect the average Christian to have the ability the jump back to a dozen or three dozen or ten dozen verses scattered all over 31,000 in the entire Bible to build a case for why Romans 5:18 slants either toward universalism or eternal torment. I know Solomon said the glory of kings is to search out a matter, but come on......that's stretching it beyond incredulity!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-09-2012, 01:11 PM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,706,353 times
Reputation: 842
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Yea... and to me you're intentionally mis-reading it to make it not say what is clearly said by Christ.

well, but even if this verse would prove eternal damnation, it still would not say that unbelievers are damned - but evildoers, this verse does still not fit in the traditionalist's agenda

but how do you deal with this verse:

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

1. Timothy 4.10

I have seen the vain attempts do prove it does not say what it actually says;

an example, if I would say "the devil hates all men, especially Christians" - would this not mean that the devil literally hates all men but especially Christians?

Now, how can God be the Savior of all men, if he does not literally save all men, a savior who doesn't save is no savior at all; "especially" puts the emphasis on the believers but includes the rest, otherwise the emphasis and the whole verse would make no sense.

So there are 3 possibilities:

I. traditionalists misinterpret Matthew 25

II. universalists misinterpret 1. Timothy 4

III. the bible contradicts itself (or Paul was a false teacher as some claim)

I have explained Matthew 25 in a sense that is compatible with universalism, now explain 1. Timothy 4 in a sense that is compatible with everlasting punishment.

Even if you were able to do so, I could blame you for twisting the scripture in the same manner as you blamed me; and we have not even considered the doctrine of annihilation as a third opinion.

You see, the game is at least a draw and I will not further argue about this issue, also see this thread:

eschatology - how you can make the bible say anything
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-09-2012, 03:27 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,822 posts, read 9,808,279 times
Reputation: 1300
Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
Now, how can God be the Savior of all men, if he does not literally save all men, a savior who doesn't save is no savior at all; "especially" puts the emphasis on the believers but includes the rest, otherwise the emphasis and the whole verse would make no sense.

So there are 3 possibilities:

I. traditionalists misinterpret Matthew 25

II. universalists misinterpret 1. Timothy 4

III. the bible contradicts itself (or Paul was a false teacher as some claim)

I have explained Matthew 25 in a sense that is compatible with universalism, now explain 1. Timothy 4 in a sense that is compatible with everlasting punishment.

Even if you were able to do so, I could blame you for twisting the scripture in the same manner as you blamed me; and we have not even considered the doctrine of annihilation as a third opinion.

You see, the game is at least a draw and I will not further argue about this issue, also see this thread:

eschatology - how you can make the bible say anything
A: ---- > II. universalists misinterpret 1 Timothy 4:2

And I have yet to read here that it isn't other than wantonly.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-09-2012, 05:34 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,195 posts, read 14,086,044 times
Reputation: 10085
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
This is why I used the noun-adjective, madness. It is sheer madness for anyone to expect the average Christian to have the ability the jump back to a dozen or three dozen or ten dozen verses scattered all over 31,000 in the entire Bible to build a case for why Romans 5:18 slants either toward universalism or eternal torment. I know Solomon said the glory of kings is to search out a matter, but come on......that's stretching it beyond incredulity!
Didn't you start this thread?

You went from claiming Rom.5:18 for universalism to sheer madness for anyone to connect Bible verses.

What's the deal?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-09-2012, 10:27 PM
 
10,178 posts, read 10,538,351 times
Reputation: 3015
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Didn't you start this thread?

You went from claiming Rom.5:18 for universalism to sheer madness for anyone to connect Bible verses.

What's the deal?
Here's the deal: one cannot expect to start a thread attempting to prove what he believes is the truth of a scripture without opponents from two other camps (annihilation and eternal torment) coming out and trying to prove him wrong. I've been in too many of these divisive threads not to know that's how it ultimately ends. Someone says, "This verse proves ET". Another chimes in with, "No, it doesn't because 1 Kings 13:24 and 2 Thess 3:2-3 contradict it. To which a third person adds, "You're only half right. 1 Kings 13:24 implies that but 2 Thess 3:2-3 does not. if you read Haggai 1:24 and then Matthew 2:2-5 you'll see that the writers are agreeing more with Daniel 12:2 and 1 Samuel 15:24 than Zechariah 9:6-8, which prove that 2 Thess 3:2-3 implies annihilation rather than ET."

I mean this gets to sound like a laughing academy after awhile. One Biblical idiot savant going after another idiot savant going after another and pretty soon you have a whole room full of idiot savants killing time debating how many angels can stand on the head of a pin. You'll come to see this truth the more you hang around here and eventually you'll conclude as I have that nothing will ever get settled. We're all debating in a vacuum and there is no answer to the question we're all asking: which is true---ET or annihilation or universalism?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-09-2012, 11:34 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,195 posts, read 14,086,044 times
Reputation: 10085
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Here's the deal: one cannot expect to start a thread attempting to prove what he believes is the truth of a scripture without opponents from two other camps (annihilation and eternal torment) coming out and trying to prove him wrong. I've been in too many of these divisive threads not to know that's how it ultimately ends. Someone says, "This verse proves ET". Another chimes in with, "No, it doesn't because 1 Kings 13:24 and 2 Thess 3:2-3 contradict it. To which a third person adds, "You're only half right. 1 Kings 13:24 implies that but 2 Thess 3:2-3 does not. if you read Haggai 1:24 and then Matthew 2:2-5 you'll see that the writers are agreeing more with Daniel 12:2 and 1 Samuel 15:24 than Zechariah 9:6-8, which prove that 2 Thess 3:2-3 implies annihilation rather than ET."

I mean this gets to sound like a laughing academy after awhile. One Biblical idiot savant going after another idiot savant going after another and pretty soon you have a whole room full of idiot savants killing time debating how many angels can stand on the head of a pin. You'll come to see this truth the more you hang around here and eventually you'll conclude as I have that nothing will ever get settled. We're all debating in a vacuum and there is no answer to the question we're all asking: which is true---ET or annihilation or universalism?
I know when I've had enough and I will move on.

There is an answer. Just because nothing is resolved here doesn't mean there is not an answer.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-10-2012, 12:01 AM
 
10,178 posts, read 10,538,351 times
Reputation: 3015
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
I know when I've had enough and I will move on.

There is an answer. Just because nothing is resolved here doesn't mean there is not an answer.
You're an optimist. That's .............good.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top