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Old 10-18-2012, 06:40 AM
 
Location: Italy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert M Prince View Post
I must say that I agree with DRob4JC instead 0f with the universalists.
Prov. 3 says [5] Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Heb. 9 says [27] And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement.
Mystic says we should trust the Holy Spirit, but 2 Tim. 3 says [16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Peter said in Acts 5:[32] And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him'
In Heb. 5, we read of Jesus that [9] He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Jesus Him self said in John 14:[15] If ye love me, keep my commandments.
So the ultimate test of whether we have the Holy Spirit is whether or not we are obedient to Him. He said in Luke 6:[46] And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
"Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith: Do you not know that Jesus Christ is in you?" (italics mine)
-2 Cor. 13.5

"That Jesus Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith." (italics mine)

(Amazing that many Christians do NOT want Jesus to dwell in their hearts, because they see it as a dirty place..)


Peace,
brian
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Old 03-30-2014, 10:16 PM
 
1,534 posts, read 1,564,223 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Let's get this settled once and for all and put an end to this madness. If the scriptures are inspired then these two verse should harmonize. We shouldn't have to use lame excuses like, "Well, we have to look at the entire Bible in context." Or "We have to put 2 Thessalonians 1:9 with Psalm 32:4 and then look at Deuteronomy 34:11-13 and see what Malachi 2:1 and Haggai 3:12 say, bla bla bla. No computer on earth can harmonize 31,240 verses that way.

Let's just take these two seemingly contrasting passages written by the same author, Paul. My challenge to both the universalists and the eternal tormentists is to simply harmonize them.

Universalists, explain why 2 Thess. 1:9 means all will be saved.



Eternal tormentists, explain why Romans 5:18 means eternal torment.



If these two verses cannot be harmonized then the scriptures are not inspired, pure and simple. If nobody attempts to do it we will understand the situation: Paul either was a schizophrenic nutjob or the scriptures have been severely tampered with. Nobody has to bother to argue this conclusion. It is evident on its face.
Well, for starters I'm neither a Universalist or a tormentist I'm just a believer whom God has give a 'holy curiously.' This caused me to have questions, right from the beginning, that no one could answer to my satisfaction or more importantly, made sense to me. I read all kinds of books, by numerous authors, on various biblical subjects, thinking surely some one would have the answers. They didn't.....That BTW was 34 yrs. ago.

But you know what I discovered instead? I discovered if I did 'word' studies of particular words, looked for the Gr./Heb definitions, studied the 'culture of the day' etc. there was/is only one "book," written by one author, that did/does have the answers to my questions.

Anyway, getting back to the 'all men to be saved.' I'm pretty sure you're not going to agree/like this answer, but here goes anyway.Regards the word, "all."

The word "all" is used in 7 or 8 seven senses in Scripture. It's very rarely then that "all" means all persons, [individually].
All is generally used to signify some of all sorts i.e some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and so one.

Another example of the same kind of usage of the words, "the whole world."
Joh 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the [whole] world is gone after him.
Did everyone in the world go after Christ?
Mt 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, were baptized of him.
Did every single person from Judaea and the region round about Jordan come to be baptized?

Now as to Rom. 5:18 meaning eternal torment. I say NO! As I stated above I do not believe the Scriptures teach Universalism because there's too many passages that speak of the wicked perishing, and there being no remembrance of them, etc etc.

What I discovered is that it's the 'result' that is eternal, not the punishment. Example, it's written the cities of S and G suffered eternal fire. But obviously they are not still burning, and since they no longer exist, it can only mean the effects [being burned till they were consumed, then the fire went out] is what is eternal.
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Old 03-31-2014, 09:53 AM
Zur
 
949 posts, read 606,437 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
My apologies. I read through your post but much of it I didn't fully absorb because I had a lot on my plate at the time I was reading it. I have transferred it over here since it is relevant to this topic and i will address forthwith:



Theologians who believe in eternal torment place the estimate of non-believing humanity and unsaved "Christians" at somewhere between 90-99%. 90% is probably generous, but the overwhelming part of humanity is non-Christian.



This sounds like man-made doctrine or personal interpretation. I don't know where in the Bible it says "This justification on its own is not enough for salvation."



Here's what I expect from Paul, or from any theologian, for that matter: I expect any sentence to complete itself. If Paul is going to stop with "so also in Christ all will be made alive" then I expect that to be the end of the matter; that the "alive" Paul is referring to is alive as in eternal life in heaven. If that isn't what Paul is saying---if there's more to be said, I expect Paul to say it; any rational-thinking person would. I don't expect a knowledgeable theologian, especially one as intelligent as Paul to leave the reader to have to comb through piles of other letters in order to figure out what he meant to follow this statement if indeed more was supposed to follow.

For example: if Paul meant what you are saying, that this justification on it's own is not enough for salvation, then he should have tagged that onto his sentence, maybe something like, "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. Howbeit, this justification on it's own is not enough for salvation."

See what I'm saying? If Paul meant to make it clear that "in Christ all will NOT be made alive then he should have explained himself thoroughly. That way there wouldn't be the slightest question of whether he was referring to eternal life in heaven or he wasn't referring to eternal life in heaven. Most dumb Christians like myself take it at face value that Paul is saying "one act of Jesus (His crucifixion) justifies all men before God and saves their soul from eternal torment". That's how the average Christian---certainly every universalist in here---reads that verse. If Paul meant to say that men are not saved, then I don't mind saying he did a p***poor job of explaining himself.
Where UR is wrong, they believe that every one is in Christ, because Jesus died for our sins and that is the salvation for all. To be in Christ is a free gift in Christ and not outside of Christ, it is conditional and not unconditional as UR teaches. The free gift is in Christ. In Adam we die. In Christ we are alive. The transmission from Adam to Christ is a matter of faith in Christ, the bible calls it "born again", what makes someone alive, otherwise a person stays in Adam (the first one who sinned= death). Jesus is the second Adam without sin, every one in Christ is alive and if he remains in Christ and dies in Christ he has eternal life. If we would have only this sentence in the bible, Ur may be right. But we cannot make a doctrine from one verse, when other sentences say something different. To say that is a contradiction and now I am free to choose what pleases me, is wrong. Mostly we do not understand what Paul wanted to say. I think the word" "all" we have also to consider. All does not always mean every one, but here I think the meaning is every one in Christ. Paul makes another statement: "All Israel shall be saved". Here also believers interpret it as all Jews will be saved. But what does the bible say on other places. All refers to Israel. Paul says not all Israel is Israel at another place. So here we also have to consider, what is the meaning of all and to whom it belongs. Here we see, that there is obviously a natural Israel and a spiritual Israel. We have to interpret the bible with the bible. Isa 10:21 makes it clear, if Israel whould be as sand of the see, only a remnant will convert to El Gibor, which is Christ. Also here the "all be saved" is not every one, but a remnant that believes in Christ Jesus, it is conditional and not unconditional.
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Old 03-31-2014, 10:42 AM
 
1,710 posts, read 1,536,438 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zur View Post
Where UR is wrong, they believe that every one is in Christ, because Jesus died for our sins and that is the salvation for all. To be in Christ is a free gift in Christ and not outside of Christ, it is conditional and not unconditional as UR teaches. The free gift is in Christ. In Adam we die. In Christ we are alive. The transmission from Adam to Christ is a matter of faith in Christ, the bible calls it "born again", what makes someone alive, otherwise a person stays in Adam (the first one who sinned= death). Jesus is the second Adam without sin, every one in Christ is alive and if he remains in Christ and dies in Christ he has eternal life. If we would have only this sentence in the bible, Ur may be right. But we cannot make a doctrine from one verse, when other sentences say something different. To say that is a contradiction and now I am free to choose what pleases me, is wrong. Mostly we do not understand what Paul wanted to say. I think the word" "all" we have also to consider. All does not always mean every one, but here I think the meaning is every one in Christ. Paul makes another statement: "All Israel shall be saved". Here also believers interpret it as all Jews will be saved. But what does the bible say on other places. All refers to Israel. Paul says not all Israel is Israel at another place. So here we also have to consider, what is the meaning of all and to whom it belongs. Here we see, that there is obviously a natural Israel and a spiritual Israel. We have to interpret the bible with the bible. Isa 10:21 makes it clear, if Israel whould be as sand of the see, only a remnant will convert to El Gibor, which is Christ. Also here the "all be saved" is not every one, but a remnant that believes in Christ Jesus, it is conditional and not unconditional.
Most universalists do not believe salvation is unconditional. They believe it is conditional but that all will come to meet the conditions.
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Old 03-31-2014, 11:11 AM
 
15,287 posts, read 8,483,139 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
Well, for starters I'm neither a Universalist or a tormentist I'm just a believer whom God has give a 'holy curiously.' This caused me to have questions, right from the beginning, that no one could answer to my satisfaction or more importantly, made sense to me. I read all kinds of books, by numerous authors, on various biblical subjects, thinking surely some one would have the answers. They didn't.....That BTW was 34 yrs. ago.

But you know what I discovered instead? I discovered if I did 'word' studies of particular words, looked for the Gr./Heb definitions, studied the 'culture of the day' etc. there was/is only one "book," written by one author, that did/does have the answers to my questions.

Anyway, getting back to the 'all men to be saved.' I'm pretty sure you're not going to agree/like this answer, but here goes anyway.Regards the word, "all."

The word "all" is used in 7 or 8 seven senses in Scripture. It's very rarely then that "all" means all persons, [individually].
All is generally used to signify some of all sorts i.e some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and so one.

Another example of the same kind of usage of the words, "the whole world."
Joh 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the [whole] world is gone after him.
Did everyone in the world go after Christ?
Mt 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, were baptized of him.
Did every single person from Judaea and the region round about Jordan come to be baptized?

Now as to Rom. 5:18 meaning eternal torment. I say NO! As I stated above I do not believe the Scriptures teach Universalism because there's too many passages that speak of the wicked perishing, and there being no remembrance of them, etc etc.

What I discovered is that it's the 'result' that is eternal, not the punishment. Example, it's written the cities of S and G suffered eternal fire. But obviously they are not still burning, and since they no longer exist, it can only mean the effects [being burned till they were consumed, then the fire went out] is what is eternal.
Excellent study.
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Old 03-31-2014, 11:13 AM
 
15,287 posts, read 8,483,139 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come View Post
Most universalists do not believe salvation is unconditional. They believe it is conditional but that all will come to meet the conditions.
Really the believe all will be forced to by God.

Think what a license that belief is for well Licentiousness and every sort of badness. You can't lose because God will make you believe in the end, so ............ have fun.
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Old 03-31-2014, 12:25 PM
Zur
 
949 posts, read 606,437 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come View Post
Most universalists do not believe salvation is unconditional. They believe it is conditional but that all will come to meet the conditions.
How will they meet the conditions? Through purification in the lake of fire? The people are destroyed and not their wickedness. Through reincarnation? A lie of the Devil. UR is not biblical at all.
After death is judgement, no one can meet the conditions anymore, it is over, this life is the dressing room for eternity. The one that is thrown into the lake of fire at the end of the Millennium is lost for ever, useless or ineffective, ruined. The fire will not be quenched, their worm will not die (Isa 66:24). They have made the wrong choice in their lives.
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Old 03-31-2014, 12:35 PM
Zur
 
949 posts, read 606,437 times
Reputation: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
Really the believe all will be forced to by God.

Think what a license that belief is for well Licentiousness and every sort of badness. You can't lose because God will make you believe in the end, so ............ have fun.
If God will work it out in the end I see it as unconditional. Every one can live and have fun in the end all are saved, what a gospel. Which Apostle preached it? God wants that all will be saved, but He kidnaps nobody to heaven.
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Old 03-31-2014, 12:42 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Arizona
546 posts, read 376,528 times
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If I might be allowed to chime in on this...

The Universalist idea is a good one, but as in all other things, it must be held within the boundaries of scripture.

Adam was a man made with fullness of humanity, male and female. But when God took his rib to make Eve, he gave up the female part, and they were to come in union. I believe that one of the important aspects of this was that God wanted humans to learn the necessity of unity.

Adam and Eve were made up of the same component parts that we are today, in spirit, soul, and body. When they sinned for the first time, Their souls and spirits and bodies were divided, and they gained a conscience. How do I know this? Because the first thing that happened after his sin was that Adam became conscious of his nakedness. Before the fall, his spirit, soul, and body worked in perfect harmony, and Jesus walked with him in the garden. His instructions and learning came from God, and there was no need of a conscience. A conscience is a guide, and before the fall, God was his guide. But afterward, his soul, containing his will, emotions, and mental thought, became separate and independent of his spirit, which was the guiding light that communed with God. So before the fall, the body followed the command of the mind or soul, and the soul followed the spirit, and the spirit heard from God. After the fall, the soul was suddenly left to find it's own way without the spirit. The spirit of Adam became dead to the rest of his being, and he was no longer in constant communion with God. This was the result of the eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

God then had to spend the next 4000 years teaching and training His humanity in the path towards glory as a group of children. Then Jesus came and showed us the way. The end result of all of this is to bring the souls of mankind to the place where they willingly bow and give honor and glory to God, they receive a perfect immortal body, and everyone is totally filled with the Holy Spirit for guidance. It says that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the Glory of God the Father. This is no statement of God forcing His will on anyone. He has never worked that way and never will. He has been showing men the way, and will continue to do so until EVERYONE catches on and gives Him honor out of their own wills. Even after death, when the masses of dead humanity gets raised for the White Throne judgment, there will be absolutely NO ONE that will be able to deny the reality of God and His power and righteousness. And they then will be saved in the manner that is so popular today, in admitting and recognizing Jesus as Lord. Then they will be judged by their WORKS.

God has His laws, and He has given them to us. Everything is done in justification. The Judge doesn't make up rules as He goes. He abides by the law. There is NO LAW allowing for torture. See if you can find one. Every act has a corresponding debt attached to it. Debts are things that can be paid off. Jesus paid the debt for Adam's sin. But God WANTED Adam to sin, because it was the method that had to be used to educate mankind so that in the end, all people would come to God of their own will. This is VERY important! God never intended to have a humanity worshipping Him as robots! He wants all of our being, including our wills! When you are married, do you want a slave-wife, or do you want a wife that commits herself to you? God is all powerful, all knowing, and all present, so why do we believe that Adam's sin was a mistake or a surprise to God?

Getting back to the present division of soul, spirit, and body...In our world, humans now, if they don't have the Holy Spirit guiding them, are left to their own conscience. Remember the verse that says "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God?" Well, our faith is built up through the Holy Spirit's guidance as we read the scriptures and find the path of correctness through them. Then, little by little, the Holy Spirit writes the laws on our hearts and we eventually, little by little, follow them unconsciously. Without the Holy Spirit and the guidance of His Bible, we have to resort to following a conscience that is guided by morality, and the rules of morality can fluctuate with the times or the blowing wind. The Holy Spirit is our guide, and the Bible is an anchor of truth. The Bible is His-Story, and we need to study history to get a better handle on His Ways. Unfortunately, throughout the centuries, men have majored on different aspects of God and formed denominations. By following denominations, we have allowed man and institutions to come between us and God as mediators. Jesus told us this: "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."
He also said, "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."
We need to listen to Godly men to hear God speaking through them, but we have failed much of the time to examine what they say and use the Word with the help of the Holy Spirit to discern truth from error. God has allowed leaven (untruth) to grow in the last 2000 years, but the time is now here to see the truth and reject the error.

We argue about saved, not saved, heaven, hell, and a million other things, but it actually comes down to this: How long will it take each individual to grow in the knowledge and love of God to reach the point where he may be resurrected and brought into the Kingdom and full view of God Himself? Our arguments are no more than childish squabbles about who is better or knows more than the other person, where in actuality, we should be helping each other understand things. God's plan is actually no more than His plan to get humanity from point A (Adam), to point F (Finished). We all learn at different rates, we all have different abilities and talents, and we will all come to Him at different times, as it says in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

But every man in his own order: Christ the first-fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he says all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Notice that it says that Jesus will reign until He has put ALL enemies under His feet. At the White Throne Judgment, everyone will realize their mistakes and be repentant. So, at that moment, the enemies of God will not be sinful humans, but the enemy will be the SIN. And Jesus' takes away the sin of the whole world! The pain and anguish and fear will come from the fire emanating from God Himself, that will burn that sin away forever. This is the eternal punishment that will take place. Sin will be burned away forever. Are we really so callous to believe that God would throw away a life that has just seen His Face and repented?

Let's pretend that you are a parent and you have a child. Your child grows up to be one of the worst people to walk the face of this earth. He winds up as the dictator of an evil empire. He commands the death of millions of people, and his actions cause the maiming of millions more, physically and mentally. Yet his time of rule is ended as a conquering army disarms him, he is put on trial, and executed. Many years later, he is resurrected to stand before Almighty God to be judged. As soon as he is brought before the Judge, he realizes the depth of his sin because, even the most rebellion that there ever was, cannot resist the Glory of God, he repents, and the Glory of God blasts into his being as a fire of righteousness, and the dross and sin of his life is burned away instantly. Any of the good things of his pitiful life remains, because God doesn't judge goodness. He drops to his knees with the remainder of his being and realizes more fully than he ever could have imagined in all of his rebelliousness, anger, and deprivation, that Jesus Christ died for him even in his waywardness and ignorance. Here he stands, having all of those sins forgiven and not only forgiven, but removed, and yet, the majority of Christianity would believe that God would condemn him to a place of permanent firey torment forever and forever.

Actually, this guy has nothing left. His sins have been REMOVED as far as the east is from the west. The Father judges him according to the law that God has set up, and he will have to grow in his being until, with the personal submission of his own will, he allows the Holy Spirit to burn the law into his heart and it becomes a part of his own being. Then, he too, will receive the fullness of the Spirit to go along with the immortal body and mind and live in tremendous unity and harmony with all that have completed the same path, the Way of Jesus.

Last edited by trumpethim; 03-31-2014 at 12:54 PM..
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Old 03-31-2014, 01:04 PM
 
1,710 posts, read 1,536,438 times
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Originally Posted by Zur View Post
How will they meet the conditions? Through purification in the lake of fire? The people are destroyed and not their wickedness. Through reincarnation? A lie of the Devil. UR is not biblical at all.
After death is judgement, no one can meet the conditions anymore, it is over, this life is the dressing room for eternity. The one that is thrown into the lake of fire at the end of the Millennium is lost for ever, useless or ineffective, ruined. The fire will not be quenched, their worm will not die (Isa 66:24). They have made the wrong choice in their lives.
Through faith in Christ. God's mercy endures forever (to the ages of the ages).
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