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Old 10-11-2012, 10:40 AM
 
Location: Chicago, chicago, it's my kinda town
223 posts, read 186,098 times
Reputation: 145

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Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow. View Post
elfstorage, this is a great discussion. Thanks for posting your thoughts.



It's just ignorance versus knowledge.

Slavery has never been "ok". Ever. Slavery is non-love in action.
The only people that thought slavery was "ok" were those people who owned slaves and justified and rationalized their actions by saying that some humans were less than.

Good and evil is Love versus non-love.
This does not change.
Our perspectives change as we grow and learn and understand and gain knowledge of what LOVE is.
God is LOVE. What is of love, is of God.
What is NOT love is NOT OF God.

We are here to learn the difference...
It's a slow (painful) process.
But we're all in this together.
Not one will be "lost" in the process.
The light of knowledge (of love) will eventually come to us all and chase away the last traces of the darkness of ignorance.


imo.
First of all I do not believe that is true. Of course in the context of modern views slavery is evil, rightly so. But only until relatively recently is that the case. Even the bible has refrences to slavery, see below. Regardless my point was that good and evil are not absolute and can change over time. 200 years from now people will think some things that we do today are evil that we may think are just fine.

From wikipedia:
The Bible contains several references to slavery. The Bible does not condemn slavery, but in fact supports the regulated practice of it, especially under the Old Testament,[1][2] but also in the New Testament.

In several Pauline epistles, and the First Epistle of Peter, slaves are admonished to obey their masters, as to the Lord, and not to men;[83][84][85][86][87] however Masters were told to serve their slaves "in the same way"[88] and "even better" as "brothers",[89] to not threaten them as God is their Master as well.

From www.gotquestions.org:
The Bible does not specifically condemn the practice of slavery. It gives instructions on how slaves should be treated (Deuteronomy 15:12-15; Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 4:1), but does not outlaw slavery altogether.
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Old 10-11-2012, 10:42 AM
 
5,664 posts, read 4,450,531 times
Reputation: 3847
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Hi Sparrow -

I agree with your post. I'm just very stressed at the moment and tired - very tired.

A lot of these terms thrown around, "SATAN" - "DEVIL" and such are a matter of semantics really.

I don't have time to worry about lofty questions these days - I'm just trying to eek out a living and keep mine and my kids' heads above water.

Bless you -
Heartsong

PM me if you get a chance and let me know what's going on and how you're doing.
I'm sorry you're going through some rough times, I hope it eases soon for you.
love ya,
sparrow
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Old 10-11-2012, 10:59 AM
 
5,664 posts, read 4,450,531 times
Reputation: 3847
Quote:
Originally Posted by elfstorage View Post
First of all I do not believe that is true. Of course in the context of modern views slavery is evil, rightly so. But only until relatively recently is that the case. Even the bible has refrences to slavery, see below. Regardless my point was that good and evil are not absolute and can change over time. 200 years from now people will think some things that we do today are evil that we may think are just fine.

From wikipedia:
The Bible contains several references to slavery. The Bible does not condemn slavery, but in fact supports the regulated practice of it, especially under the Old Testament,[1][2] but also in the New Testament.

In several Pauline epistles, and the First Epistle of Peter, slaves are admonished to obey their masters, as to the Lord, and not to men;[83][84][85][86][87] however Masters were told to serve their slaves "in the same way"[88] and "even better" as "brothers",[89] to not threaten them as God is their Master as well.

From www.gotquestions.org:
The Bible does not specifically condemn the practice of slavery. It gives instructions on how slaves should be treated (Deuteronomy 15:12-15; Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 4:1), but does not outlaw slavery altogether.

Some, maybe even a LOT of what you read in the bible (your example of slavery, for instance) is a window into mankind's IGNORANT perspective of the world around him. The bible is a reflection. There is light, there is darkness. We are to separate the wheat from the chaff.

When we read the bible, we read a lot of the ignorant and barbarous ways of the people who came before us. Are we going to learn FROM their mistakes/ignorance or are we going to say "Well ol' Peter said that enslaving people was cool... so I think back then it was cool, nothing wrong with it." What the heck?? No. It wasn't cool. It wasn't GOOD! It wasn't OK. It NEVER was. Back when it was happening, it was NOT GOOD. This has NEVER changed.

When you are a toddler, you may have thought it was good to reach up and touch the shiny red burner on the stove. Is reaching up and touching a shiny red burner on a stove EVER Good? NO. Just because the ignorant toddler thinks it is, doesn't make it so...
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Old 10-11-2012, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Chicago, chicago, it's my kinda town
223 posts, read 186,098 times
Reputation: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow. View Post
Some, maybe even a LOT of what you read in the bible (your example of slavery, for instance) is a window into mankind's IGNORANT perspective of the world around him. The bible is a reflection. There is light, there is darkness. We are to separate the wheat from the chaff.

When we read the bible, we read a lot of the ignorant and barbarous ways of the people who came before us. Are we going to learn FROM their mistakes/ignorance or are we going to say "Well ol' Peter said that enslaving people was cool... so I think back then it was cool, nothing wrong with it." What the heck?? No. It wasn't cool. It wasn't GOOD! It wasn't OK. It NEVER was. Back when it was happening, it was NOT GOOD. This has NEVER changed.

When you are a toddler, you may have thought it was good to reach up and touch the shiny red burner on the stove. Is reaching up and touching a shiny red burner on a stove EVER Good? NO. Just because the ignorant toddler thinks it is, doesn't make it so...

Well, Jesus came before us as did the bible. Are you suggesting they are ignorant? Also, "ol Peter" is a disciple of Jesus. And those quotes are part of the bible. Are you saying that you should not take the bible literally too?
Also, if you had your hand cut off then touching the shiny red burner to cauterize the wound would be a good thing to save you from bleeding to death. So you saying it is never good is wrong. Obviously most of the time it isn't good but most is not always.
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Old 10-11-2012, 11:24 AM
 
1 posts, read 739 times
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so if the devil is evil that humans commit. What about the crusades? Wasn't that where a bunch of christians gathered together and KILLED anyone that would not take jesus as their savior? Yes it was. So in fact christianity was started on killing and suffering. I guess "god" made people do this? Then they want to recite the 10 commandments (which mirror almost exactly what the Egyptian "Book of the Dead" says), "Thou shall not kill." Ummm, then why did they kill people that would not take jesus? Maybe so they could control the people?
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Old 10-11-2012, 11:25 AM
 
5,664 posts, read 4,450,531 times
Reputation: 3847
What LOVE is... does not change.

God is LOVE.

God is the same yesterday, today and forever.
Love is the same yesterday, today and forever.

How we understand God changes, as our views and understanding evolve and mature.

Back in the day, people thought the world was flat. But our understanding grew. Now we know the world is not flat. Now we know the world was never flat. We just had a dim view. We were ignorant. Now we see and understand.

So it will be with our understanding of the Creator. Our understanding continues to grow and mature.
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Old 10-11-2012, 11:31 AM
 
887 posts, read 686,834 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
AMEN Sparrow...very nicely stated and I agree 100%!!!!
That makes 2 of us. Great post sparrow.

The kingdom of heaven is within. (I think that's in the bible somewhere too )
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Old 10-11-2012, 11:36 AM
 
5,664 posts, read 4,450,531 times
Reputation: 3847
Quote:
Originally Posted by elfstorage View Post
Well, Jesus came before us as did the bible. Are you suggesting they are ignorant? Also, "ol Peter" is a disciple of Jesus. And those quotes are part of the bible. Are you saying that you should not take the bible literally too?
Also, if you had your hand cut off then touching the shiny red burner to cauterize the wound would be a good thing to save you from bleeding to death. So you saying it is never good is wrong. Obviously most of the time it isn't good but most is not always.

When did I say that Jesus was ignorant??

Yes I am definitely saying that you are not to take the whole bible literally. Do you??

I'll be back later on tonight. gotta run.

by the way, I never said anything about a bloody stump touching the burner. I was talking about a healthy hand reaching up and touching the burner. (lol, that was a good one though. perhaps mine was not the best example.)
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Old 10-11-2012, 11:41 AM
 
Location: Chicago, chicago, it's my kinda town
223 posts, read 186,098 times
Reputation: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow. View Post
What LOVE is... does not change.

God is LOVE.

God is the same yesterday, today and forever.
Love is the same yesterday, today and forever.

How we understand God changes, as our views and understanding evolve and mature.

Back in the day, people thought the world was flat. But our understanding grew. Now we know the world is not flat. Now we know the world was never flat. We just had a dim view. We were ignorant. Now we see and understand.

So it will be with our understanding of the Creator. Our understanding continues to grow and mature.
Ok. That is obviously a romantic viewpoint. But if god made the devil and has the power to destroy him but does not then god allows evil to exist. God may stay the same but love is an emotion and like all emotions they are transient. Saying god is love is like saying god is happy or god is good or god is vengeful...how about just GOD IS.
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Old 10-11-2012, 12:01 PM
 
5,664 posts, read 4,450,531 times
Reputation: 3847
Quote:
Originally Posted by elfstorage View Post
Ok. That is obviously a romantic viewpoint. But if god made the devil and has the power to destroy him but does not then god allows evil to exist. God may stay the same but love is an emotion and like all emotions they are transient. Saying god is love is like saying god is happy or god is good or god is vengeful...how about just GOD IS.

ok, had to respond to this real quick before i head out.


Yes, God DOES allow evil (non-love) to exist. It will eventually be obsolete. The whole reason we are here, (imo) is to discover what love is and what love is not. We have to walk through it.

As for your thoughts on love being an emotion, I think you are confusing agape love with eros love.
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