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Old 10-11-2012, 12:14 PM
 
Location: Florida -
8,767 posts, read 10,851,233 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Hmmm

Do people think that God gives Satan authority so that people will go to hell? That is what it sounds like.

"This is good and acceptable to God, who desires all people be saved"... ?


No, they think that God gives Satan authority so that people will have a true choice ... otherwise, there is no need for anyone to be "saved"
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Old 10-11-2012, 01:13 PM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfstorage View Post
God is the most powerful entity in the universe. Which means he has the power to destroy the devil...and yet doesn't. Why?
Because He is letting His plans play out not ours and not the devils.
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Old 10-11-2012, 02:38 PM
 
Location: New England
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The quickest way to deal with the devil (the old man) is to abide in His peace.

and the God of the peace shall bruise the Adversary under your feet quickly; Romans 16:20

There is no greater adversary for us than the carnal thinking mind,any kind of thinking that does not bear the image of the mind of God is delusional and should be considered the adversary.

For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:16.
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Old 10-11-2012, 02:58 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,618,679 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
No, they think that God gives Satan authority so that people will have a true choice ... otherwise, there is no need for anyone to be "saved"
So God gives Satan authority so that people have a true choice, so that many people will be tempted, fall, and go to hell forever?
And God sends His son to save all people but in reality can only save a fraction? Because most are tempted by the devil, whom God gave authority?

Really?
And you still claim God wants to save all people?
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Old 10-11-2012, 03:20 PM
 
Location: New England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinD69 View Post
Because He is letting His plans play out not ours and not the devils.
Would you agree that the plan of God is His will ?.
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Old 10-11-2012, 03:33 PM
 
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It makes the story more interesting.

Think how boring it would be if everything was wonderful, lovely, beautiful, blah, blah blah.

and everyone was kind and loving. And there was no wars, suffering, etc. etc. etc.

Satan makes boring a little more bearable.
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Old 10-11-2012, 05:14 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero 7 View Post
That makes 2 of us. Great post sparrow.

The kingdom of heaven is within. (I think that's in the bible somewhere too )
It is...but most will try to convince us otherwise with the newer translations that say "in the midst of".

Luke 17:20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

If one is looking anywhere else other than within oneself to find our Source/God...that Source will NEVER be found...hence the current state of Christianity that refuses to look within.
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Old 10-11-2012, 07:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow. View Post
Here is my viewpoint:

What is "the devil"? satan? What is "satan"? satan = adversary.
Who/what is the adversary? The adversary is that which opposes.

Opposes what?? God.

What is God? God is LOVE.


What opposes LOVE?

WE DO.
within each of us is the "adversary". You can call it "satan", you can call it "devil", you can call it "anti-christ". This adversary is Within ME. within YOU.

In any given moment, when we choose the non-loving path, our feet are walking on the wide path that leads to destruction. In any given moment, when we choose the loving path.... our feet are walking on the narrow path that leads to life.

WE are ALL in this together. We are learning. We are LOVED.
Everything trickles down. What affects one, affects us all.
We are ONE. (though we cannot understand or comprehend it right now.)

God IS destroying "the devil". By having mankind walk through this schoolyard of the knowledge of good and evil (knowledge of love and non-love). LOVE CONQUERS ALL. Eventually, the opposition to love will weaken and fall by the wayside. Eventually, when non-love has been exhausted and we as mankind finally understand the big picture of the weak, yet wholly destructive nature of non-love -versus- the all-consuming undeniable, overwhelming reconciling POWER of LOVE... then and only then will "the devil" finally be destroyed.

The message of the cross is misunderstood. Jesus wasn't God's whipping boy. Christ represented LOVE, Christ pointed the way to the FATHER. Mankind put Christ on a cross and tried to destroy LOVE... but LOVE (Christ) was resurrected. The message of the cross is: LOVE WILL TRIUMPH. LOVE WILL CONQUER. LOVE WINS. That is FAITH. Believing that ultimately, LOVE has the final word. LOVE WILL TRIUMPH. That is the message of the cross.

It is what is WITHIN each of us that is slowly being refined, the dross being burned out of us like a silversmith burns the impurities out of silver... until he sees his own reflection staring back at him.

We are all in this together.
The "devil" is slowly, yet persistently being destroyed.
That is what this life is all about.


just some thoughts.
peace,
sparrow
Quote:
Originally Posted by elfstorage View Post
These are some good explanations. But based on some of these comments it seems like the devil is more of an abstract idea than a concrete being. I found these quotes online:

"The Bible, taken literally, clearly states the devil exists. Satan is mentioned by name in 47 passages (NIV). The devil is mentioned in 33 more."

"Some people don't believe the Bible is literally true. When they ask, "Is the devil real?" they must rely more on personal experiences in the world."

So, even though some peoples personal experiences equate the devil as evilness in general, the bible explicitly states that there is a devil and he is a real being. Which means that if god created everything indeed he created the devil and evil too along with love and goodness. Which also would mean that god allows the devil and thereby evil to exist too. Which also follows that god encompases all that is good and bad.

But if we have free will then maybe we are the ones that ultimately are to judge good and evil. After all, there are things today that we consider evil that were once considered ok, like slavery for example. So if the definition of evil changes then good and evil may not be a product of god after all. For why would god allow the definitions of good and evil to change over time? Just a thought.
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow. View Post
elfstorage, this is a great discussion. Thanks for posting your thoughts.



It's just ignorance versus knowledge.

Slavery has never been "ok". Ever. Slavery is non-love in action.
The only people that thought slavery was "ok" were those people who owned slaves and justified and rationalized their actions by saying that some humans were less than.

Good and evil is Love versus non-love.
This does not change.
Our perspectives change as we grow and learn and understand and gain knowledge of what LOVE is.
God is LOVE. What is of love, is of God.
What is NOT love is NOT OF God.

We are here to learn the difference...
It's a slow (painful) process.
But we're all in this together.
Not one will be "lost" in the process.
The light of knowledge (of love) will eventually come to us all and chase away the last traces of the darkness of ignorance.


imo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow. View Post
Some, maybe even a LOT of what you read in the bible (your example of slavery, for instance) is a window into mankind's IGNORANT perspective of the world around him. The bible is a reflection. There is light, there is darkness. We are to separate the wheat from the chaff.

When we read the bible, we read a lot of the ignorant and barbarous ways of the people who came before us. Are we going to learn FROM their mistakes/ignorance or are we going to say "Well ol' Peter said that enslaving people was cool... so I think back then it was cool, nothing wrong with it." What the heck?? No. It wasn't cool. It wasn't GOOD! It wasn't OK. It NEVER was. Back when it was happening, it was NOT GOOD. This has NEVER changed.

When you are a toddler, you may have thought it was good to reach up and touch the shiny red burner on the stove. Is reaching up and touching a shiny red burner on a stove EVER Good? NO. Just because the ignorant toddler thinks it is, doesn't make it so...
Quote:
Originally Posted by elfstorage View Post
Well, Jesus came before us as did the bible. Are you suggesting they are ignorant? Also, "ol Peter" is a disciple of Jesus. And those quotes are part of the bible. Are you saying that you should not take the bible literally too?
Also, if you had your hand cut off then touching the shiny red burner to cauterize the wound would be a good thing to save you from bleeding to death. So you saying it is never good is wrong. Obviously most of the time it isn't good but most is not always.
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow. View Post
When did I say that Jesus was ignorant??

Yes I am definitely saying that you are not to take the whole bible literally. Do you??

I'll be back later on tonight. gotta run.

by the way, I never said anything about a bloody stump touching the burner. I was talking about a healthy hand reaching up and touching the burner. (lol, that was a good one though. perhaps mine was not the best example.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by elfstorage View Post
Ok. That is obviously a romantic viewpoint. But if god made the devil and has the power to destroy him but does not then god allows evil to exist. God may stay the same but love is an emotion and like all emotions they are transient. Saying god is love is like saying god is happy or god is good or god is vengeful...how about just GOD IS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow. View Post
ok, had to respond to this real quick before i head out.


Yes, God DOES allow evil (non-love) to exist. It will eventually be obsolete. The whole reason we are here, (imo) is to discover what love is and what love is not. We have to walk through it.

As for your thoughts on love being an emotion, I think you are confusing agape love with eros love.
Your posts have been marvelous as usual, sparrow! Anyone sincerely trying to understand them should have no difficulty whatsoever. But that does not appear to be the goal of elfstorage. His responses are just baiting, sparrow. Apparently he has determined that the literal interpretation of the Bible including the Devil is ludicrous (which of course it is) . . . and it is his intent to ridicule and denigrate it . . . NOT discuss the concept intelligently. I suspect the idea of engaging the subject intellectually and discussing the issues intelligently is something he has no interest in whatsoever.
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Old 10-11-2012, 07:29 PM
 
Location: South Florida
167 posts, read 152,772 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Why Believe Anything View Post
so if the devil is evil that humans commit. What about the crusades? Wasn't that where a bunch of christians gathered together and KILLED anyone that would not take jesus as their savior? Yes it was. So in fact christianity was started on killing and suffering. I guess "god" made people do this? Then they want to recite the 10 commandments (which mirror almost exactly what the Egyptian "Book of the Dead" says), "Thou shall not kill." Ummm, then why did they kill people that would not take jesus? Maybe so they could control the people?

But if you remember what Christ said as he hung on the cross....Luke 23: 34...."Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they don't know what they are doing."

They didn't know what they were doing, it wasn't done "of God" those actions were don't "of flesh=sinful nature=pride", simply put!

People do evil things in the name of God/ Christianity, yet those evil acts are reflections of the flesh, not of GOD!
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Old 10-11-2012, 08:02 PM
 
2,278 posts, read 2,180,331 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfstorage View Post
God is the most powerful entity in the universe. Which means he has the power to destroy the devil...and yet doesn't. Why?
That's one of the mysteries of Christianity. The scriptures don't say why God didn't/doesn't just destroy Satan. But, in reading the Bible, we do learn about God's character and what His plans are. That's helps us to understand a little better.

God is sovereign over His entire creation, including Satan. Satan and his angels are only allowed a certain amount of freedom right now. We also know, from Isaiah 14:24, that God has a plan that was created since before the creation of the world and that plan won't be diverted, changed, destroyed or altered. It will be perfectly fulfilled.

We also have the promise in Romans 8:28, "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. God's plans for Satan are the best possible plans. God’s perfect wrath and justice will be satisfied, and He will be glorified. Those who love Him and who wait for His plan to be fulfilled will be part of that plan and will praise and glorify Him as they see it unfold.

Psalm 18:30 says, "As for God, His way is perfect." To question God's plans or His timing is to question God's judgment and His character. Who are we to do that? Once a person TRULY becomes a Christian, surrendering their life fully to God and His ways, abiding in Him and obeying His word, they realize that God's plans are far better than anything we could imagine for ourselves. We trust Him. That includes His plans for Satan.
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