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Old 10-23-2012, 03:19 PM
 
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How many times have you heard it said that the Bible doesn't teach the rapture of the Church, and that it is a theory that was invented by Charles Darby? When I read comments such as that, I wonder how anyone who actually reads the Bible can possibly arrive at such a conclusion. You simply cannot read with understanding, the passages which speak of the rapture, such as 1 Cor. 15:51-54 or 1 Thess. 4:13-17, and honestly say that it does not teach the rapture.

The rapture of the church is not a theory dreamed up less than 200 years ago. The English word 'rapture' is taken from the Latin word 'rapturo' which itself is a translation of the Greek word 'harpazó' which is found in 1 Thess. 4:17 and translated as 'caught up'. The rapture of the church refers to the catching up of the church. 1 Thess. 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first 17] Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up (harpazó - rapturo - raptured) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

That's the rapture. It's not a theory. You might deny it, but it is clearly taught in Scripture. You cannot honestly claim that it is a matter of interpretation because the rapture of the church is the catching up of the church as declared in 1 Thess. 4:17.


Some people claim that the Tribulation began in 70 A.D. That is not what the Bible teaches. The tribulation spoken of in the book of Revelation did not occur with the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. The Tribulation spoken of in the book of Revelation is the 70th week of Daniel's 70 week prophecy in Daniel 9:24-27. Those are weeks of years for a period of 490 years. The Church Age separates the first 69 weeks of the prophecy from the 70th week which is still future. The 70th week begins with the signing of a covenant with the many (the signing of a peace treaty by the antichrist with Israel - Daniel 9:27). In the middle of the 70th week the antichrist will break the covenant and will install himself in the temple. That is the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel in Daniel 9:27, and referred to by Jesus Christ in Matthew 24:15.

2 Thess. 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4] who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

There will be a rebuilt temple during the seven year Tribulational period and therefore the Tribulation did not begin with the destruction of the temple.

We know that the Tribulation will be seven years in length, because 1.) It is Daniel's 70th week which we know is a week of years - 7 years, and 2.) because the antichrist will seat himself in the temple halfway through the Tribulation at which point those who are in Jerusalem are warned to flee into the wilderness where the Lord has prepared a place for them where they will be nourished for a time, times and half a time (Rev. 12:14). This last half of the Tribulation is also designated as being 1260 days, and 42 months in length (Rev. 11:2-3; 13:5). 1260 days is 3 1/2 years of 360 day years. The 360 days is not forced into the context, but is declared by the Scripture itself.


Scripture also shows that the rapture of the church will occur before the Tribulation.

1.) The general outline of the book of Revelation given in Rev. 1:19 confirms this. "Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things."

The first phrase, 'Therefore write the things which you have seen', refers to the things Daniel was shown in Revelation chapter one - 'the seven lampstands, the one like a son of man holding seven stars'.

The second phrase, 'and the things which are', refers to the seven churches described in chapters two and three, which are representative of churches throughout the present Church Age.

The third phrase, 'and the things which will take place after these things', refers to all the events which will take place after the Church Age terminates with the rapture. Revelation chapters four and following describe the Tribulation, the return of Christ, the setting up of the Millennial kingdom, the great white throne judgment, and the new heaven and new earth.

2.) 2 Thess. 2:3-8 states that the man of lawlessness - the antichrist cannot appear until the restraining ministry of the Holy Spirit is removed. Though God the Holy Spirit will be present on the earth during the Tribulation, His restaining ministry will be removed when the church is raptured. Then the antichrist can come on the scene and sign the covenant with the many (Daniel 9:27) which begins the Tribulation.
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Old 10-23-2012, 03:50 PM
 
4,564 posts, read 4,270,356 times
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I think many on here believe there is a rapture, but it will not happen until when Jesus comes back when everyone is raptured. But at the same time, if we are here to go through the tribulation we will know exactly when he is returning by just watching the signs of whats happening.
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Old 10-23-2012, 04:08 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,389,465 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAAN View Post
I think many on here believe there is a rapture, but it will not happen until when Jesus comes back when everyone is raptured. But at the same time, if we are here to go through the tribulation we will know exactly when he is returning by just watching the signs of whats happening.
The invention of the Millennialists is that 1 Thess. 4:17 is a seperate event from 1 Thess. 4:16 and Matthew 25 :31-46.


Also, those who make 1 Thess. 4:17 into a seperate event take the descriptions \ numbers found in Rev as literal when they are symbolic. It's no surprise then that the same inventors of Rev who teach that wrong do so when it comes to Daniel.


There is only one 2nd return of Jesus... not multiple returns.
All the dead will rise to be judged ( the believer first with those who are still alive at the time) ... not some now and some later.
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Old 10-23-2012, 04:20 PM
 
Location: Florida -
9,159 posts, read 11,353,184 times
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Good post Mike! - There are some who believe that because a theological principle wasn't fully understood at the time it was given (eg; End Times, Daniel, Rapture, etc) - that it must have been invented by men. I'm not so sure that is a valid argument, since there are many things 'sealed' until the end times. However, the Rapture itself is not a theology, nor does it contradict scripture -

I believe that the Bible teaches a pre-Tribulation Rapture based on Ten scripture-based reasons below. But, ultimately, all will either DIE or be RAPTURED and immediately "go to meet the Lord in the air" --- The question folks should be asking themselves is, are you living in a manner that prepares you to meet the Lord at anytime ... by death, rapture or ???

“10 Compelling Proofs for a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.”

1) Scripture repeatedly refers to the sudden removal (‘Rapture’) of believers. God has also promised to keep His people from His wrath and the time of the Great Tribulation.
a) Some are taken, others are left behind - Mat 24:37-44
b) Caught up to meet Lord in the clouds - 1 Th. 4:16-17
c) Some are kept from wrath - Rev 3:10, I Th. 5:9; Lk 21:36
d) Changed in the twinkling of an eye – 1 Cor 15:51-52
e) Wicked punished (Tribulation) Eph 5:6-7; Is. 26:20-21


2) God’s wrath and judgment are not intended for Christ’s church - God has always removed His people from the path of His wrath and judgment.
a) God’s divine protection - ITh.1:10; 5:9; Rom 5:9; Eph 5:6;
Gal 3:16; 2 Pet 2:9; Rev 3:10
b) Noah–Gn7:1;Lot–Gn19:23-25; Passover-Ex12:12-14
c) Salvation: Rom 3:23; 6:23; IJN 1:10
d). Pray for deliverance from Great Tribulation (Lk 21:36)

3) Christ’s church on earth is absent during the entire 16 chapter description of the Great Tribulation on earth
a) “Church” referenced 20 times in first three chapters and 7-letters of Revelation - Rev 1-3
b) Then, inexplicably, there is no further reference to the church on earth during Great Tribulation (Rev 4-19)
c) God’s people (church) appears from Heaven (Rev 19, 21:22) .

4) God’s 'selective' protection of some believers, and wrath for others, is unprecedented
a) Only 144,000 are sealed / protected on earth Rev 7:1-14
b) “God is no respecter of persons” - Act 10:34
c) All believers are one; One bread/body - Gal 3:28; 1Cor 10:17

5). The removal of God’s Holy Spirit makes way for the rise of the Antichrist during the Great Tribulation (He who restrains the lawless one) ... yet, God has promised to never leave or take His Spirit from believers
a) Holy Spirit removed - 2 Thes 2:7-8
b) Satan’s empowered to make war against saints - Rev 13:7-8
c) Take a number; worship the beast – Rev. 13:14-16
d) God will be with believers always - Mat 28:20+
e). Nothing separates believers from God’s love – Rom 8:36-38

6). The 7-year Great Tribulation is a final opportunity for the lost to repent and be saved (Pointless for the saved)
a) Remaining new believers are martyred (#5) - Rev 6:9-11
b) Multitude of martyred Tribulation believers – Rev. 7:14
c) It is not God’s will that any should perish - 2 Pet 3:9
d) Lives of last generation lost otherwise cut short

7) Christ will first return in the air/clouds (rapture) – After the Tribulation, Christ will return to earth on the Mount of Olives
a) Meet Lord in the Clouds - I Thes 4:16-17
b) “I will come back and take you with me” - Jn 14:23
c) Return with army of believers.- Rev 19:14
d) Feet will stand on mount of Olives – Zech. 14:3-4
e) City Split in three parts - Zech 14 & Rev 16:17-19

8) Conditions on earth toward the middle and end of the Great Tribulation are horrific and inconsistent with those described when believers are caught-up to meet the Lord in the air (Rapture) –Mat. 24:37-44; 1Thes 4:16-17
a) There will be Tribulation on earth unlike any time ever before or again. - Mat 24:21
b) People working side-by-side in fields; on roofs; etc.; eating, drinking, marrying and suddenly taken - Mat 24:37-44; Lk 17
c) All grass and wheat destroyed; Ships & marine life are destroyed; Fresh water is poison and turned to blood;
Men attacked by demons; develop boils, and are killed. Rev 8:7; 16:3-17

9).. A mid Tribulation (or later) rapture leaves no saints on earth to make war against, during Satan’s 42-month War
a) At 42-months, beast given power to make war against the saints and overcome (martyr) them. - Rev 13:4-8 –

10) There are significant differences between Christ’s Rapture of the church, and the Glorious Appearing of Christ at the end of the Great Tribulation–
a) Believers are gathered from heaven as army; The earth will mourn - Mat 24:30-31 – Rev 19:14;
b) Believers rejoice when Christ Comes - Jn 16:21-22; I Ch 16:10; Lk 19:37; Rev 12:12
c). Earth will mourn at final return of Christ
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Old 10-23-2012, 04:33 PM
 
23,171 posts, read 17,459,301 times
Reputation: 9779
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAAN View Post
I think many on here believe there is a rapture, but it will not happen until when Jesus comes back when everyone is raptured. But at the same time, if we are here to go through the tribulation we will know exactly when he is returning by just watching the signs of whats happening.
If you understand that every Church Age believer is a part of the body of Christ and the bride of Christ, and if you understand that every Church Age believer will appear before Jesus Christ at the judgment seat of Christ which takes place in heaven after the rapture of the Church and before the marriage of the Lamb, then you will understand why no Church Age believer will be in the Tribulation.

Also, just as the Church had no part of the first 69 weeks of Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy, neither will the Church have any part of Daniel's 70th week. The Tribulation is for Israel and for the unbelieving Gentile nations. The church by definition is neither one.

Despite the beliefs of those who think that the Church will go through the Tribulation, I have shown in the 1st post with the use of Scripture that the Church is to be raptured before the Tribulation begins. Unfortunately, there are many people, who having come by their present beliefs, will not accept what the Bible actually says.
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Old 10-23-2012, 04:49 PM
 
23,171 posts, read 17,459,301 times
Reputation: 9779
Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
Good post Mike! - There are some who believe that because a theological principle wasn't fully understood at the time it was given (eg; End Times, Daniel, Rapture, etc) - that it must have been invented by men. I'm not so sure that is a valid argument, since there are many things 'sealed' until the end times. However, the Rapture itself is not a theology, nor does it contradict scripture -

I believe that the Bible teaches a pre-Tribulation Rapture based on Ten scripture-based reasons below. But, ultimately, all will either DIE or be RAPTURED and immediately "go to meet the Lord in the air" --- The question folks should be asking themselves is, are you living in a manner that prepares you to meet the Lord at anytime ... by death, rapture or ???

“10 Compelling Proofs for a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.”

1) Scripture repeatedly refers to the sudden removal (‘Rapture’) of believers. God has also promised to keep His people from His wrath and the time of the Great Tribulation.
a) Some are taken, others are left behind - Mat 24:37-44
b) Caught up to meet Lord in the clouds - 1 Th. 4:16-17
c) Some are kept from wrath - Rev 3:10, I Th. 5:9; Lk 21:36
d) Changed in the twinkling of an eye – 1 Cor 15:51-52
e) Wicked punished (Tribulation) Eph 5:6-7; Is. 26:20-21


2) God’s wrath and judgment are not intended for Christ’s church - God has always removed His people from the path of His wrath and judgment.
a) God’s divine protection - ITh.1:10; 5:9; Rom 5:9; Eph 5:6;
Gal 3:16; 2 Pet 2:9; Rev 3:10
b) Noah–Gn7:1;Lot–Gn19:23-25; Passover-Ex12:12-14
c) Salvation: Rom 3:23; 6:23; IJN 1:10
d). Pray for deliverance from Great Tribulation (Lk 21:36)

3) Christ’s church on earth is absent during the entire 16 chapter description of the Great Tribulation on earth
a) “Church” referenced 20 times in first three chapters and 7-letters of Revelation - Rev 1-3
b) Then, inexplicably, there is no further reference to the church on earth during Great Tribulation (Rev 4-19)
c) God’s people (church) appears from Heaven (Rev 19, 21:22) .

4) God’s 'selective' protection of some believers, and wrath for others, is unprecedented
a) Only 144,000 are sealed / protected on earth Rev 7:1-14
b) “God is no respecter of persons” - Act 10:34
c) All believers are one; One bread/body - Gal 3:28; 1Cor 10:17

5). The removal of God’s Holy Spirit makes way for the rise of the Antichrist during the Great Tribulation (He who restrains the lawless one) ... yet, God has promised to never leave or take His Spirit from believers
a) Holy Spirit removed - 2 Thes 2:7-8
b) Satan’s empowered to make war against saints - Rev 13:7-8
c) Take a number; worship the beast – Rev. 13:14-16
d) God will be with believers always - Mat 28:20+
e). Nothing separates believers from God’s love – Rom 8:36-38

6). The 7-year Great Tribulation is a final opportunity for the lost to repent and be saved (Pointless for the saved)
a) Remaining new believers are martyred (#5) - Rev 6:9-11
b) Multitude of martyred Tribulation believers – Rev. 7:14
c) It is not God’s will that any should perish - 2 Pet 3:9
d) Lives of last generation lost otherwise cut short

7) Christ will first return in the air/clouds (rapture) – After the Tribulation, Christ will return to earth on the Mount of Olives
a) Meet Lord in the Clouds - I Thes 4:16-17
b) “I will come back and take you with me” - Jn 14:23
c) Return with army of believers.- Rev 19:14
d) Feet will stand on mount of Olives – Zech. 14:3-4
e) City Split in three parts - Zech 14 & Rev 16:17-19

8) Conditions on earth toward the middle and end of the Great Tribulation are horrific and inconsistent with those described when believers are caught-up to meet the Lord in the air (Rapture) –Mat. 24:37-44; 1Thes 4:16-17
a) There will be Tribulation on earth unlike any time ever before or again. - Mat 24:21
b) People working side-by-side in fields; on roofs; etc.; eating, drinking, marrying and suddenly taken - Mat 24:37-44; Lk 17
c) All grass and wheat destroyed; Ships & marine life are destroyed; Fresh water is poison and turned to blood;
Men attacked by demons; develop boils, and are killed. Rev 8:7; 16:3-17

9).. A mid Tribulation (or later) rapture leaves no saints on earth to make war against, during Satan’s 42-month War
a) At 42-months, beast given power to make war against the saints and overcome (martyr) them. - Rev 13:4-8 –

10) There are significant differences between Christ’s Rapture of the church, and the Glorious Appearing of Christ at the end of the Great Tribulation–
a) Believers are gathered from heaven as army; The earth will mourn - Mat 24:30-31 – Rev 19:14;
b) Believers rejoice when Christ Comes - Jn 16:21-22; I Ch 16:10; Lk 19:37; Rev 12:12
c). Earth will mourn at final return of Christ
Thanks John. Your's is a good post as well. I find it hard to understand how people who have done any studying on the subject at all can simply dismiss the rapture as a man made theory, or think that the Church will go through the Tribulation. But then, there are also many people who will say with a straight face that the Bible doesn't say that Jesus Christ is God. Both instances are nothing less than willful rejection of what the Bible teaches. And for those reading this, my comment about those who believe that Jesus Christ is not God is not an invitation to take this thread off topic by debating the deity of Christ. I was simply making a comparison.
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Old 10-23-2012, 05:25 PM
 
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Let's also remember there was the "Mystery" that was hidden since the world began that was given to Paul. During Old Testament times they did not see this present age at all. They did not know the age of Grace was to be. That was the Mystery that was hidden. This age must end so the 70th week can start and the Law be in effect again and the Temple built. That cannot happen while the church is on Earth.
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Old 10-23-2012, 07:11 PM
 
23,171 posts, read 17,459,301 times
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Joe Bob View Post
Let's also remember there was the "Mystery" that was hidden since the world began that was given to Paul. During Old Testament times they did not see this present age at all. They did not know the age of Grace was to be. That was the Mystery that was hidden. This age must end so the 70th week can start and the Law be in effect again and the Temple built. That cannot happen while the church is on Earth.
This is true. It is unfortunate that many, or perhaps most Christians don't understand what dispensations are. And not understanding what dispensationalism is, they dismiss it as something unscriptural and therefore become victims of replacement theology in which the church is wrongly held to be spiritual Israel.

Dispensations - 'oikonomia' (1 Cor. 9:17; Eph. 1:10; Luke 16:2-4) refer to stewardship or administration. [Readers can refer to Ephesians 1:10 Biblos Interlinear Bible to see the Greek, and how oikonomia is used in those passages]. Dispensations are the framework of God's plan of the ages in which a particular group of people is given the responsibility for the stewardship or administation of the gospel at a particuliar point in history. From one dispensation to another, the responsibilty of handling that stewardship changes from one group of people to another group. First to the Gentiles, then to Israel, then to the Church, and finally, during the Messianic Kingdom, Jesus Christ Himself will be the administrator.

In the age of the Gentiles, all believers were administrators and held responsible for disseminating the truth. In the age of Israel, the Jews were the administrators and custodians of the gospel. In the Church Age it is the Church, made up of all believers, who are the administrators. In the Millennium it will be Jesus Christ Himself who is the steward. That is one aspect of dispensations.

And of course, in the age of Israel the Jews were under the law. The Church on the other hand is under grace. This doesn't mean that God didn't treat the Jews in grace, for the Old Testament is clear that He did. But the purpose of the law which Israel was under was to show the inability of man to keep the law, and to point the way to Jesus Christ.

God has different programs for Israel and the Church. While the Church Age is in progress, the age of Israel is on hold. The Church is an intercalation - an insertion which separates the first 69 weeks of Daniel's prophecy from the 70th week.

The Church Age must terminate before God places Israel's program back on active status. Daniel's 70th week - the time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7) concludes the age of Israel. Following the Tribulation, God's promises to Israel regarding the Abrahamic, Palestinian, and Davidic covenants, and the New covenant to Israel, will find their fulfillment in the Millennial kingdom.
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Old 10-24-2012, 09:49 AM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
31,301 posts, read 50,601,455 times
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Mike555, jghorton, Jimmy Joe Bob - I agree with all of this.

One thing I noted, is that we teach there is a distinction between 'Body of Christ' and 'Bride of Christ'. Two different groups of peoples.

Otherwise spot on
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Old 10-24-2012, 12:02 PM
 
23,171 posts, read 17,459,301 times
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Originally Posted by Submariner View Post
Mike555, jghorton, Jimmy Joe Bob - I agree with all of this.

One thing I noted, is that we teach there is a distinction between 'Body of Christ' and 'Bride of Christ'. Two different groups of peoples.

Otherwise spot on
When I made reference in post #5 to the body of Christ and the bride of Christ, it was not my intention to make a distinction between them as though they are two different groups of people, but rather to identify them as the same thing. The Church is called both the body of Christ and the bride of Christ.

It would have been better to have said, that every believer is a part of the body of Christ, also called the bride of Christ, rather than 'If you understand that every Church Age believer is a part of the body of Christ and the bride of Christ', as I did in that post.
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