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God is the saviour of all mankind, but that doesn't mean everyone will be saved, unless they believe.
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Originally Posted by Jerwade
1 Timothy 2:4 ὃς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι καὶ εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας ἐλθεῖν. who desires all people to be saved and come to full knowledge of the truth. Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular
An active present tense or an ongoing result of a previous action (that of the Christ), and in the ongoing result of that action; desires all men to be saved and come to the full knowledge of the truth. The action is indicative or that of being real. Nowhere is it subjunctive, that of being contingent or probable, nor imperative on the subjects response. Neither is it Optative, as in being unlikely or wishful that the man "might" come to this salvation and knowledge.
John 3:17
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world; but to save the world through him.
For simplicity, it’s a prevailing tone or quality, which relates to the mood of verbs within the Greek language.
An example would be that of, "Pick up your cane and walk." Which would be imperative upon the person’s response.
God our Savior who desires ..... is real. Unfortunately, not many [all] believe now, but they will, when they come face to face with the truth.
For simplicity, it’s a prevailing tone or quality, which relates to the mood of verbs within the Greek language. An example would be that of, "Pick up your cane and walk." Which would be imperative upon the person’s response.
God our Savior who desires ..... is real. Unfortunately, not many [all] believe now, but they will, when they come face to face with the truth.
Yes, God desires all men be saved. He wills that all men come to saving knowledge. Yet, He's not going to trample over our choice to either be made new, or remain as we are. He's not going to force anyone to be with Him. Case in point, God didn't intend for sin to be on the earth, He didn't desire to see all this death. Yet man chose not to trust God, and we are where we are today.
Also I notice something else, why do you take a couple of verses out of Scriptures, and base your understanding on them, yet throw other verses away? You have to weigh Scripture against Scripture, and rightly divide the word. Yes, God desires all men to be saved, that is a real desire. Yet how do you jump from that to God will save all men, even if it is against their will? If that were the case, Christians could rightly persecute non-believers and say, "You are going to be Christian, or else!" A lot of people did that in the past, particularly in the Crusades.
No, it is clearly evident from Scripture that it is a choice. What's the point in preaching if everyone will be with God one day? There is no way in infinity you could come up with a good argument why people should risk their lives in preaching, when everyone will come to God one day.
Yes, God desires all men be saved. He wills that all men come to saving knowledge. Yet, He's not going to trample over our choice to either be made new, or remain as we are. He's not going to force anyone to be with Him. Case in point, God didn't intend for sin to be on the earth, He didn't desire to see all this death. Yet man chose not to trust God, and we are where we are today.
Also I notice something else, why do you take a couple of verses out of Scriptures, and base your understanding on them, yet throw other verses away? You have to weigh Scripture against Scripture, and rightly divide the word. Yes, God desires all men to be saved, that is a real desire. Yet how do you jump from that to God will save all men, even if it is against their will? If that were the case, Christians could rightly persecute non-believers and say, "You are going to be Christian, or else!" A lot of people did that in the past, particularly in the Crusades.
Love never uses force, not through threat of punishment, either. It isn't necessary.
Love simply IS a force -- the most powerful force there is. By virtue of it's very nature, it draws people to itself. When we become aware of it and experience it, we begin to desire it, and go to it willingly. Love never ends, it never gives up, it never fails. It just IS.
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No, it is clearly evident from Scripture that it is a choice. What's the point in preaching if everyone will be with God one day? There is no way in infinity you could come up with a good argument why people should risk their lives in preaching, when everyone will come to God one day.
One does not weigh the pros and cons and then make a decision to preach or not to preach. Your life can't help but "preach" love to whatever degree you have experienced it, because you're being transformed by it.
Amen Pleroo. There are many ways we are drawn to God and preaching is one of them. Some are called in this age and preaching is the means by which of those are drawn.
Love never uses force, not through threat of punishment, either. It isn't necessary.
Love simply IS a force -- the most powerful force there is. By virtue of it's very nature, it draws people to itself. When we become aware of it and experience it, we begin to desire it, and go to it willingly. Love never ends, it never gives up, it never fails. It just IS.
Love also is about free will. Listen, you don't think the pharisees in Jesus day didn't see God's love on all the people that were healed? They saw all the diseases that were being healed, all the burdens being lifted off of people, yet they said Jesus was full of the devil. They hated the light, and they loved darkness. What makes you think they will ever change their mind, if God's love on the people couldn't? Prison was created for people who could care less. Hell was created for the very same reason. Notice the Bible said that Hell was created for the devil and his angels. Did Satan ever create an angel? So why does the Bible say Hell was created for the devil and "his" angels? It's simple. Anyone who wants to follow the devil in his path to try and knock God off His throne, there is a place where they don't have to be under God's house. You don't think Satan knew of God's love when he was in Heaven? He seen God in all His glory, yet he willfully chose to go against Him. God's not going to change Satan's will, and He's not going to change anyone else's either.
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Originally Posted by Pleroo
One does not weigh the pros and cons and then make a decision to preach or not to preach. Your life can't help but "preach" love to whatever degree you have experienced it, because you're being transformed by it.
Haven't you heard Jesus words to "count the cost". That anyone who follows Jesus must deny himself. And if anyone who still value any part of their life over Jesus, is not fully prepared to preach. I'm just a guy talking on an internet forum, but to actually go out there into the world full blown, you really need to count the cost. (I'm learning and counting) Yet if I know everyone will come to know the Lord one day, I can continue to preach on these forums, hoping someone will listen, and at the same time be comfortable just living life without much persecution.
Love never uses force, not through threat of punishment, either. It isn't necessary.
Love simply IS a force -- the most powerful force there is. By virtue of it's very nature, it draws people to itself. When we become aware of it and experience it, we begin to desire it, and go to it willingly. Love never ends, it never gives up, it never fails. It just IS.
One does not weigh the pros and cons and then make a decision to preach or not to preach. Your life can't help but "preach" love to whatever degree you have experienced it, because you're being transformed by it.
Love never uses force, not through threat of punishment, either. It isn't necessary.
Love simply IS a force -- the most powerful force there is. By virtue of it's very nature, it draws people to itself. When we become aware of it and experience it, we begin to desire it, and go to it willingly. Love never ends, it never gives up, it never fails. It just IS.
One does not weigh the pros and cons and then make a decision to preach or not to preach. Your life can't help but "preach" love to whatever degree you have experienced it, because you're being transformed by it.
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Originally Posted by .sparrow.
That was beautiful, Pleroo.
Amen! How did such a beautiful and simple message become so corrupted in the mainstream churches . . . especially when Christ Himself displayed it so unambiguously in His life, teaching and death???
Yes, God desires all men be saved. He wills that all men come to saving knowledge.
Eusebius has pointed out that "you keep interjecting your theology" trumping the word.
A great example is that stated by you, "a saving knowledge." Read the verse, again:
"Who desires all men to be saved and come to the full knowledge of the truth."
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Yet, He's not going to trample over our choice to either be made new, or remain as we are. He's not going to force anyone to be with Him.
Case in point, God didn't intend for sin to be on the earth, He didn't desire to see all this death. Yet man chose not to trust God, and we are where we are today.
The verse mentioned, does not indicate that humanity will be trampled over as you suggest, but it does say all men will come to the full knowledge of the truth.
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Also I notice something else, why do you take a couple of verses out of Scriptures, and base your understanding on them, yet throw other verses away? You have to weigh Scripture against Scripture, and rightly divide the word. Yes, God desires all men to be saved, that is a real desire. Yet how do you jump from that to God will save all men, even if it is against their will? If that were the case, Christians could rightly persecute non-believers and say, "You are going to be Christian, or else!" A lot of people did that in the past, particularly in the Crusades.
You believe that you are autonomous, for your will trumps his desire.Contrary to your assertions, I do not rely on only one or two verses, rather it's an overall understanding of the Scriptures and Languages.
But let us not forget the truth of persecution: "You are going to be a Christian, or else suffer the torments of hell?"Another false teaching of mankind.
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No, it is clearly evident from Scripture that it is a choice. What's the point in preaching if everyone will be with God one day?
There is no way in infinity you could come up with a good argument why people should risk their lives in preaching, when everyone will come to God one day.
How exactly does it happen that normal human beings, all endowed with that of a conscience; having an awareness of individual responsibility for their judgments and choices. Manage to justify in their own eyes the most inhuman atrocities and acts of self-righteousness without running into intolerable cognitive dissonance within their own supreme values?
During my better moments, when I more fully comprehend Christ's love for mankind,
my belief is informed that Christ's desire is to bring ALL to Himself.
It's then that my view of mankind is rooted in Love. In Mercy.
Not judgement.
Five times in that short paragraph he used the words "choice" and "choose."
But looking back at 1 Timothy 2:4-6 I see the words "choose" and "choice" absent. I see God's saving of all mankind is based solely upon Christ ransoming all mankind.
Don't abuse the principle of sola scriptura! The reading comprehension abilities of fundamentalist evangelicals are astoundingly horrible.
Didn't Christ mention something about Pharisees and Scribes being too literalist? Jesus does condemn Fundamentalism in the Gospels.
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