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Old 11-09-2012, 09:00 AM
 
Location: Somewhere flat in Mississippi
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Some people seem to believe God Himself dictated the King James Bible to the scribes of early 17th century England. Why is that?
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:10 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouldy Old Schmo View Post
Some people seem to believe God Himself dictated the King James Bible to the scribes of early 17th century England. Why is that?
The belief in dictation is predicated on the mistaken belief that if the entire Bible is not infallible and inerrant we cannot trust ANY of it or know which parts are God-inspired. This is silly and seriously undermines our knowledge and powers of reason as guided by Christ who abides with us as the Comforter within our consciousness. There is significant lack of belief and trust that Christ is the LIVING Word of God and abides with us. Most seem to think that our ancestors' savage hearts without the guidance of the Holy spirit are the same as ours WITH the guidance of the Holy Spirit. That is why they cite the OT passage about their hearts being untrustworthy.
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:34 AM
 
Location: Florida -
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The issue is not whether people have gotten more sophisticated over the years and therefore better able to understand God.
(A newborn baby has a better chance of understanding his parents tax return, than we do of fully comprehending the mind and purpose of God.) God is the source of divine inspiration and neither He or His Word is subject to change or variation. God inspired His Word in the beginning and is able to keep it inspired ... in spite of human efforts to the contrary.

We can and must trust God's Word, in spite of the 'wisdom of this age' -- Those who believe they are 'wise enough' to discard part of God's Word (which they claim is no longer applicable or accurate) ... and keep other parts (which they claim are true because of their own unique, Spirit-guided ability to discern the difference) -- are deceived! They have chosen (as scripture declares they would in the Last Days) ... to no longer endure sound doctrine -- and to be their own God.
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:52 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
The issue is not whether people have gotten more sophisticated over the years and therefore better able to understand God.
(A newborn baby has a better chance of understanding his parents tax return, than we do of fully comprehending the mind and purpose of God.) God is the source of divine inspiration and neither He or His Word is subject to change or variation. God inspired His Word in the beginning and is able to keep it inspired ... in spite of human efforts to the contrary.

We can and must trust God's Word, in spite of the 'wisdom of this age' -- Those who believe they are 'wise enough' to discard part of God's Word (which they claim is no longer applicable or accurate) ... and keep other parts (which they claim are true because of their own unique, Spirit-guided ability to discern the difference) -- are deceived! They have chosen (as scripture declares they would in the Last Days) ... to no longer endure sound doctrine -- and to be their own God.
You are not open to a critical examination of the "precepts and doctrines of men" that drive your insistence on misunderstanding what inspiration actually means. You do not believe Christ abides with us and guides us to the truth God has "written in our hearts." There is no basis for discussion with such a point of view. I simply reiterate . . . inspiration is NOT dictation . . and affords NO inferences about infallibility or inerrancy for ANYTHING that is written by and maintained in human hands.

Those believing in fables and unsound doctrine are those who retain the ancient ignorance in preference to what Christ revealed about the true nature of God and our relationship to Him. Follow Christ and His commands to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't . . . or not. It is your choice. For me . . . Christ is the definition of Christian . . . NOT the Bible.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:00 AM
 
15,025 posts, read 7,540,967 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The belief in dictation is predicated on the mistaken belief that if the entire Bible is not infallible and inerrant we cannot trust ANY of it or know which parts are God-inspired. This is silly and seriously undermines our knowledge and powers of reason as guided by Christ who abides with us as the Comforter within our consciousness. There is significant lack of belief and trust that Christ is the LIVING Word of God and abides with us. Most seem to think that our ancestors' savage hearts without the guidance of the Holy spirit are the same as ours WITH the guidance of the Holy Spirit. That is why they cite the OT passage about their hearts being untrustworthy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
The issue is not whether people have gotten more sophisticated over the years and therefore better able to understand God.
(A newborn baby has a better chance of understanding his parents tax return, than we do of fully comprehending the mind and purpose of God.) God is the source of divine inspiration and neither He or His Word is subject to change or variation. God inspired His Word in the beginning and is able to keep it inspired ... in spite of human efforts to the contrary.

We can and must trust God's Word, in spite of the 'wisdom of this age' -- Those who believe they are 'wise enough' to discard part of God's Word (which they claim is no longer applicable or accurate) ... and keep other parts (which they claim are true because of their own unique, Spirit-guided ability to discern the difference) -- are deceived! They have chosen (as scripture declares they would in the Last Days) ... to no longer endure sound doctrine -- and to be their own God.

Mystic didn't say that that was the issue, so perhaps you might want to examine why you are making it the issue? He said that we have more knowledge (do you deny this?) AND that our powers of reason are guided by Christ who is in and with us (do you deny this?).
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:06 AM
 
15,025 posts, read 7,540,967 times
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Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Mystic didn't say that that was the issue, so perhaps you might want to examine why you are making it the issue? He said that we have more knowledge (do you deny this?) AND that our powers of reason are guided by Christ who is in and with us (do you deny this?).

That being said, Mystic, I'm not sure I'm completely in agreement with you about the idea that God was not in and with people of ancient times. I think, perhaps, the problem was simply that they were completely oblivious to that fact and since they had the mistaken belief that they were separated from God, their behavior was impacted (for the worse) by that belief. I think the good news of the Jesus story was simply a call to people to recognize what has always been true: humanity is not separated from God except in their own minds. God is and always has been in and with us because it is in God, that we exist.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:55 AM
 
37,508 posts, read 25,243,901 times
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Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
That being said, Mystic, I'm not sure I'm completely in agreement with you about the idea that God was not in and with people of ancient times. I think, perhaps, the problem was simply that they were completely oblivious to that fact and since they had the mistaken belief that they were separated from God, their behavior was impacted (for the worse) by that belief. I think the good news of the Jesus story was simply a call to people to recognize what has always been true: humanity is not separated from God except in their own minds. God is and always has been in and with us because it is in God, that we exist.
I do not disagree with you substantially, Pleroo . . . but the missing ingredient was the existence of the pure agape love of the Holy Spirit WITHIN the collective human consciousness. To use my "womb" analogy . . . The Holy Spirit was outside the "womb of humanity" until Christ was conceived as human. That doesn't mean it was not the central core of our existence . . . just that it only manifested sporadically through inspirations until Christ. That is why it was essentially ignored as we focused on our carnal existence almost exclusively. Now it is always there as the Way or connection to God . . . maybe "spiritual umbilical cord" would be the best analogy.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouldy Old Schmo View Post
Some people seem to believe God Himself dictated the King James Bible to the scribes of early 17th century England. Why is that?
As I understand it they hold that God has preserved His word in perfect form and had it translated into English and that the KJV is somehow that perfect English translation.

While I believe the KJV is a very good translation of the Greek text at it's base, I do not know that I agree that it is the Perfect English translation and that God has blessed it above all other translation prior to or after.
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Old 11-09-2012, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Somewhere flat in Mississippi
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Question More KJV questions

1. If God wanted to "dictate" a "perfect" Bible, why would He wait until the King James Version to do so?

2. How did the KJV become the Bible favored by anti-Catholics?
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Old 11-09-2012, 01:13 PM
 
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I'm probably somewhere between jghorton and mystic when it comes to how I view the reliability of scripture. Most bible inerrantists view any concession of something being questionable or flawed in scripture as an all or nothing thing where it falls down an unrecoverable slippery slope. This approach I find to be Extremely flawed because it first assumes that if you can't trust one little part of the bible, you can't trust any of which is just silly. The "slippery slope" could very easily have ledges it can "fall" on to and this is alot safer for the bible than imagining it on a pillar where there are no ledges to fall on to if pushed (by a discovered flaw).

This fundamentalist "all or nothing" approach to bible inarrency in also relies on several contextually questionable verses and on the idea the early Church fathers who decided on which books were allowed in it were completely guided by the holy spirit with no political motivation at all. A reasnable understanding of that time period makes this seem more than a little questionable.

All that being said, I believe it possibly could have been the inerrant word of God in the original writings, but I do not consider it essential or a make or break faith issue. I do prefer to think that God helped preserve the most essential parts up to now and beyond, but such an idea can take alot of forms. Anyways, we don't need Pastors jumping out of 20th story windows just because they discover that Paul got the name or location of some fountian wrong or something like that.
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