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I agree with all your posts in this thread. To boil it down to brass tacks, God did not have Jesus crucified to appease his anger. It was the wrath of man that demanded a blood sacrifice from as early as the story of Cain and Abel where Abel's blood cried out from the ground for vengeance. In the NT we are told that Jesus' blood speaks of better things than that of Abel. (I think that's in Hebrews)
As I see it, too, Heartsong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
It is nothing short of preposterous that here in the Year of our Lord 2012 with all the amazing advances in knowledge in so many fields . . . ANYONE could credit the ignorant savage and barbaric notion of blood sacrifice as a legitimate desire of any God. What conceivable kind of God would want the killing of ANYTHING . . . let alone innocent animals or a human being . . . as appeasement for ANY reason???? How has this idiocy escaped the dust bin of history along with the throwing of infants into fires to appease Baal or the witch doctor's and shaman's barbaric rituals???? It boggles the mind that anyone could believe it is true!
Even in the book of Hebrews, in chapter 10, it is reiterated: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me."
If anything, I can see that the blood (which = LIFE) of Christ is what "cleanses" us so that we no longer feel the need to try to hide ourselves from God or to cover up in shame with "fig leaves". The LIFE gives us LIFE. What need does God have of a sacrifice? None. We were the ones in need of it, so that our minds could be renewed to the unfailing and unconditional love of God.
The body that was prepared for Christ ... is it not us? God pours LIFE into US.
It is nothing short of preposterous that here in the Year of our Lord 2012 with all the amazing advances in knowledge in so many fields . . . ANYONE could credit the ignorant savage and barbaric notion of blood sacrifice as a legitimate desire of any God. What conceivable kind of God would want the killing of ANYTHING . . . let alone innocent animals or a human being . . . as appeasement for ANY reason???? How has this idiocy escaped the dust bin of history along with the throwing of infants into fires to appease Baal or the witch doctor's and shaman's barbaric rituals???? It boggles the mind that anyone could believe it is true!
What is your authority for dismissing the book of Hebrews?
Even in the book of Hebrews, in chapter 10, it is reiterated: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me."
Let's read that entire passage:
Hebrews 10
10 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4 because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7 Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, O God.’”[a]
8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them” (although the law required them to be made). 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
10 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4 because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7 Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, O God.’”[a]
8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them” (although the law required them to be made). 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Would it offend you if I said the man who lived by faith was never under the law ?..
10 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4 because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7 Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, O God.’”[a]
8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them” (although the law required them to be made). 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Yes, Jimmie ... and I see nothing here which contradicts what I said. God did not need nor require nor desire a sacrifice in order to be appeased.
Yes, Jimmie ... and I see nothing here which contradicts what I said. God did not need nor require nor desire a sacrifice in order to be appeased.
I'm in a bit of a rush, but I wanted to add ... the sacrifices required by the law which were only a shadow of what was to come, were for the purpose of cleansing the consciences of the people ... not appeasing (or pleasing) God ... it says so right there in the text. They were not desired by God.
They were a "shadow" because they didn't effect change in people ... whereas the LIFE of Christ does.
I'm in a bit of a rush, but I wanted to add ... the sacrifices required by the law which were only a shadow of what was to come, were for the purpose of cleansing the consciences of the people ... not appeasing (or pleasing) God ... it says so right there in the text. They were not desired by God.
They were a "shadow" because they didn't effect change in people ... whereas the LIFE of Christ does.
No, they were a shadow because Jesus was to come as the ultimate and final sacrifice. Jesus commanded us to remember His flesh and blood, not His life. Read v. 10-sacrifice of the body.
Then why did He require them? And why did He send Jesus (John 3:16)? And why did it please Him to "crush" His Son (Isaiah 53)?
Why ?. Not to condemn it like you who have faith in eternal torment believe he did.
John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Verse 18
he who is believing in him is not judged, but he who is not believing has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Do you understand any area of your life you are not believing in the grace of God, you as a Christian are being judged ?. No amount of lip service of saying you believe in Jesus and the bible will cover up whether you are living your life by faith or not.
So why did God send His Son?....To reveal the Father. He that's seen me has seen the Father. Do you understand what Jesus is saying here?.Forget Christianity for a moment and imagine yourself back then hearing that not only can you see God, but you can see God as your Father. Can you imagine being told this when your whole lifetime God is anything but your Father ?.
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I agree with all your posts in this thread. To boil it down to brass tacks, God did not have Jesus crucified to appease his anger. It was the wrath of man that demanded a blood sacrifice from as early as the story of Cain and Abel where Abel's blood cried out from the ground for vengeance. In the NT we are told that Jesus' blood speaks of better things than that of Abel. (I think that's in Hebrews)
God did not need nor require nor desire a sacrifice in order to be appeased.
