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Old 11-12-2012, 09:44 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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I keep hearing about God being the same 'essence', but are we not all the same essence? We all came from the same origin, we're all the 'image of God', so are we too not the same 'essence' as God?

An amoeba which splits into two. They are both the same 'essence', but that does not preclude separate consciousness.

The question I ask is. Is the mind of Jesus the same as the mind of God? Do they think thoughts the same way? Or do they not even think the way we do? I have too many questions, lol.
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:31 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
That puts a different light on it. Believing that Jesus is literally his Father's Son. You see, the whole idea of describing Jesus as the 'Son of God' or the 'Son of Man' sort of carries the suggestion that he was the PROGENY of God, that he came after the Son. In terms we're familiar with, it would be weird to suggest the Son and the Father have always been.
Well, I believe that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, did exist prior to His birth in Bethlehem. He just existed as a spirit, independent of a physical body. Still, He was the Son of God, even before the Incarnation.

I don't know if this will make any sense or not, but I'll just throw it out there for your consideration. The Bible speaks of what happened "in the beginning," but then says God has no beginning. Consequently, it seems to me that "in the beginning" has to refer to the beginning as it pertains to us and to our universe. "In the beginning" describes the moment at which the clock started ticking, so to speak. But if God has no beginning, He must have existed prior to the time the Bible describes as "the beginning." I believe that it was in the time before "the beginning," that Jesus Christ came to exist as the spirit Son of His Father. By the time "the beginning" came around, He was with His Father and, along with His Father, was known as "God."

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The fact the Holy Spirit/God impregnated Mary might neatly fit into your theory. I think, though, that it was a weird intersect between the metaphorical and the literal.
I wouldn't feel at all comfortable speculating about how Mary became pregnant, except to say that it was by some miraculous process. I believe that the Holy Ghost most definitely was present, but that God (the Father) is every bit as much the literal Father of Jesus as Mary is His literal mother.

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So you believe God was in human form? That reminds me of the passage in Jesus where it describes God 'walking' through the Garden of Eden. Did the writer of the Genesis account believe God took on human form, like how the Greeks anthromorphized Gods to the extreme, basically seeing them as human beings with supernatural powers?
Yes, I most certainly do believe that God has the form of a human. That is not to say that He is a mortal being like us, because I don't believe He is. I believe He's immortal, incorruptable, and perfect in every regard. But the Bible does say that we were created in His image, and an "image" is the representation of physical qualities. You look in the mirror and you see your image. An identical twin is often said to be the exact image of his twin. A camera captures an image of what the subject looks like. Even when we say that a person is "the image of health," we are saying that he looks or appears to be healthy. When the word "image" is used in Genesis, it is used in the context of the recounting of the physical creation of the world and all life forms. After God describes the various forms of animal life and says that each will reproduce after its own kind, He says, "Let us creat man in our image, after our likeness." Just a couple of Chapters later, Adam is said to have begotten a son, "after his likeness, in his image." I realize I'm in the minority here, but I believe that when the Bible tells us we are created in the image of God, that's exactly what it means.

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Jesus is sort of an heir to that tradition. It's not clear what Jesus is now: is he in human form or a spirit? So he just takes the appearance of a human but is a supernatural being? If he sits at the right hand of his father, are they really just two beings with one consciousness? If God is invisible, how will be even see him enthroned? My assumption is that Jesus is the only face of God we will ever see because God has no face. Jesus' purpose is the manifest God in visible, human form, since God is beyond human perception.
I believe that Jesus' spirit left His body when He died and that it returned to His body on the third day following His death, giving it new -- but this time -- everlasting life. He spent some 40 days among His disciples after His resurrection, eating, drinking, walking and talking with them. They felt the wounds in His hands, feet and sides. He was a physical being -- again, not a "mortal" being but an "immortal being with flesh and bones." He specifically pointed this out to His followers, and prior to His ascention into Heaven, He told them that when He returned to Earth it would be in the same form as He left them. That was a physical form. I believe that He does today sit on the right hand of His Father. When Stephen looked up into Heaven, He said that He saw the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of God. Now this is only possible if there were two physically distinct persons, both of them visible.

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If you only read the earlier part of each Gospel you'd be forgiven for thinking Jesus in no way thought of himself as co-equal with God. He uses language of deference, but is that merely to demonstrate his servility? The Gospel of John seems to more metaphysically connect Jesus with Yahweh. I think the key is your own conception of the Trinity. I know Mormons do not accept Jesus as God, and I vaguely remember reading about them believing God is a human and Jesus his literal son I think. But it's certainly an interesting way of looking at things.
No, Mormons definitely believe that Jesus is "God." We just don't believe He is the same individual as God the Father. It is impossible for there to be a father-son relationship unless there are two distinct beings.

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I always found the whole substitutionary atonement interesting. I always thought, what really did God give up? I mean it's not like he gave up his son for God. And how could God truly give up anything if he owns all? So it's basically like God sacrificing himself to himself? It just doesn't seem to fit. Maybe we have to re-envisage this whole neat trinity doctrine, or look at it another way.
You kind of lost me here. Maybe it's because I'm not a Trinitarian Christian. I don't believe God sacrificed Himself to Himself. I believe He sacrificed His Only Begotten Son in order that all of the rest of us might be able to be forgiven of our sins without having to first endure the punishment for them. I can't think of anything more difficult than to offer up your own child as a sacrifice. Once again, this whole thing probably makes sense to me because I see the Father and the Son as physically distinct from one another and as having a true Father-Son relationship. If I saw them as two just different manifestations of a single substance, it wouldn't make a lot of sense to me either.

Last edited by Katzpur; 11-12-2012 at 11:37 PM..
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:45 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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^ Just briefly, for now. But wouldn't that contradict the passage that says no one has seen God's 'face'? Indeed, does he have a face? Or maybe that was before Stephen's vision. Do you conceive God as an old man with a white beard?

So basically you believe there are two literal thrones with two literal humanoids who are God, but magically can control everything through telekinesis? So you believe Jesus was a spirit beforehand that came into being but also God? So you're saying Jesus was another God?
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:47 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
I keep hearing about God being the same 'essence', but are we not all the same essence? We all came from the same origin, we're all the 'image of God', so are we too not the same 'essence' as God?
In a sense, I think you're onto something. We are all the offspring of God (see Acts 17:28-29), and offspring are off the same essence as their parents. Still, we are all individuals, physically distinct from each other and from God.

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The question I ask is. Is the mind of Jesus the same as the mind of God? Do they think thoughts the same way? Or do they not even think the way we do?
John 10:30 says that the Father and the Son are "one." It does not say that they are numerically a single unit. And John 7:11 clarifies exactly what Jesus meant when He said they are "one." It states, "And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are." I don't believe that Jesus was praying that we may all someday be absorbed into the substance we call God, or that we will lose our own identities and become part of God. It seems so obvious to me that Jesus was not talking of "one" as a number designating a single unit, but of "one" as describing a unity that is perfect and absolute.

There are numerous instances where the word "one" is found in the scriptures denoting a unity which is not physical:

Exodus 24:3 says, "And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do."

2 Corinthians 13:11 says, "Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you."

Acts 4:32 states, "And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common."

In every one of these instances, the word "one" denotes unity, and I would say that God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ are of "one mind." That doesn't mean that they are two individuals who share a mind, but that they are fully united in their thinking, in their desires for mankind. I think it's worth noting, too, that there is one instance in the Bible that makes it absolutely clear that we are talking about two distinct individuals. In the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus prayed to His Father that "the bitter cup" might be removed from Him. But He specifically said, "Not my will, but thine be done." Clearly, there were, at that moment, two separate wills -- the Father's and the Son's. But the Son gave up His will so that His Father's will would be done.
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:58 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
^ Just briefly, for now. But wouldn't that contradict the passage that says no one has seen God's 'face'?
Well, doesn't the following passage of scripture contradict it, as well?

Genesis 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

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Do you conceive God as an old man with a white beard?
I don't know that I think of Him as an old man. I believe He probably looks like His Only Begotten son. The Bible tells us that Jesus Christ is "the express image of His [father's] person." To me, that says, (1) God is in human form and (2) Jesus Christ looks exactly like Him.

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Indeed, does he have a face?
If Jesus had a face and was in the express image of His Father's person, I'd certainly imagine so. He even says the angels see the face of God. People can say that means something completely different from what it plainly states. That's fine with me. I just happen to disagree.

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So basically you believe there are two literal thrones with two literal humanoids who are God, but magically can control everything through telekinesis?
It sounds basically like you're asking me if I believe in God (to which the answer is "yes") and that we were literally created in His image (again, the answer is "yes"). Would I refer to it as "magic"? Probably not. I'd say God's power is simply beyond our capacity to understand.

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So you believe Jesus was a spirit beforehand that came into being but also God? So you're saying Jesus was another God?
Re-read my first response. Short answer -- The Father is God. The Son is God. They are physically distinct beings who share the title of "God" and all of the attributes of God. And I definitely agree with Thomas Jefferson, who said, "It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one and one is three, and yet one is not three and three are not one."
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Old 11-12-2012, 11:20 PM
 
19,942 posts, read 17,082,427 times
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Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
I keep hearing about God being the same 'essence', but are we not all the same essence? We all came from the same origin, we're all the 'image of God', so are we too not the same 'essence' as God?
No...we are separate beings. When I say same "essence"...the church council that defined it used the term to indicate they are part of the same being.
Quote:
An amoeba which splits into two. They are both the same 'essence', but that does not preclude separate consciousness.
No...they are now separate creatures.
Quote:
The question I ask is. Is the mind of Jesus the same as the mind of God? Do they think thoughts the same way? Or do they not even think the way we do? I have too many questions, lol.
I'm not sure they can be said to "think" like we do. They are separate persons, though---the Bible says they interact and communicate and fellowship with each other. They are not all the same 1 being.
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Old 11-12-2012, 11:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post

No, Mormons definitely believe that Jesus is "God." We just don't believe He is the same individual as God the Father. It is impossible for there to be a father-son relationship unless there are two distinct beings.
From the time of the Apostles the church has taught that Jesus is God. He has always been God and there has never been a time when He did not exist as God. The Mormon church teaches that he was born of God, right--that he is literally the offspring of God? if so, that's not what the Bible teaches.
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Old 11-12-2012, 11:30 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
From the time of the Apostles the church has taught that Jesus is God. He has always been God and there has never been a time when He did not exist as God. The Mormon church teaches that he was born of God, right--that he is literally the offspring of God? if so, that's not what the Bible teaches.
I believe it is exactly what the Bible teaches. Jesus Christ is the "Son of the living God." Furthermore, we believe every bit as much as you do that "in the beginning," the Word (Jesus Christ) "was God" and that He was "with God." Are you honestly saying that the Bible does not teach that Jesus Christ is the Son of God? If He was not the Son of God, who do you believe His Father was?

By the way, could you please respond to the questions I asked you a few posts back: Could you define the word "essence" and tell me what you believe God's essence to be? I hear the word used a lot, but I just can't get my mind around what it means with respect to God. To me, an essence is the stuff from which something is made; what is it to you?

Last edited by Katzpur; 11-12-2012 at 11:44 PM..
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Old 11-12-2012, 11:40 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
No...we are separate beings. When I say same "essence"...the church council that defined it used the term to indicate they are part of the same being.

No...they are now separate creatures.
What's the difference between a "being" and a "creature"?
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Old 11-12-2012, 11:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I believe it is exactly what the Bible teaches. Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God. We believe every bit as much as you do that "in the beginning," the Word (Jesus Christ) "was God" and that He was "with God." Are you honestly saying that the Bible does not teach that Jesus Christ is the Son of God? If He was not the Son of God, who do you believe His Father was?
Does Mormonism not teach that Jesus is a Spirit that was born in Heaven? Or that the Trinity is 3 separate gods?

I just saw your question about "essence". Essence was used by a church council to mean the very being. They concluded from Scripture that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are 3 persons....but all of the same "essence" or being. They are not 3 completely different individuals. They are 3 persons.....1 God.
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