In what sense did the 'persons' of the Trinity exist before the Incarnation?

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Vizio

Does Mormonism not teach that Jesus is a Spirit that was born in Heaven?

Mormonism teaches that Jesus existed in Heaven as a Spirit prior to His birth in Bethlehem. In other words, His existence as God did not begin with His birth. In case you missed it, this post explains my belief.

Or that the Trinity is 3 separate gods?

We believe that the Godhead is comprised of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. They are physically distinct from one another, but they are "one God" in terms of their unity in will, purpose, mind, heart, knowledge, power, love and in every other conceivable way. If you believe they are "three" in any way, please tell me in what way they are "three."

I just saw your question about "essence". Essence was used by a church council to mean the very being. They concluded from Scripture that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are 3 persons....but all of the same "essence" or being. They are not 3 completely different individuals. They are 3 persons.....1 God.

Okay, I'm lost. They are not three individuals, but three persons? How is a person not an individual?

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by Trimac20

@ Mike, So if the persons loved each other than that would be like God loving himself, would it not? Doesn't real love between persons require them to be separate for it to qualify as 'love' per se? Like if, theoretically, I have an identical twin who shares the same brain and same consciousness as me, and I say I love him, it's the same brain that is saying that. But yeah you're right, who knows what kind of relationship it is.

Trimac, God does love Himself. It isn't said of God only that He loves, but that He IS love (1 John 4:8). God loves His own perfect essence. He loves His perfection, His glory. God's essence or nature is the sum total of all of His perfect attributes. And His essence is His glory. Everything that God does, He does for His own glory (Psalm 79:9; Isaiah 43:25; Jeremiah 14:20-21; John 17:24). In the eternal past when nothing existed other than God Himself, His love was directed toward His own holiness or integrity. God loves who and what He is. God perfectly fulfills His own uncompromising standards; therefore He loves His own righteousness and justice (Psalm 11:7a; 33:5a; 37:28a).

While a person should love himself (love your neighbor as yourself [Matt. 22:39; Mark 12:31]), total self love would be arrogance because we are sinful and imperfect. But in God, total self love is legitimate because He is absolutely perfect. If God did not love Himself, there would be no reason for us to love Him.

Since the three Persons of the Godhead all have the exact same perfect essence - nature - substance, each of the three Persons love the other two Persons with absolutely perfect and infinite love.

So you're saying if one of the persons were removed God wouldn't be God? But I thought each person was FULLY God and not divisible.

Each of the three Persons of the Godhead is indeed fully God. But God is One. There is only one God who subsists as three Persons who are united by their essence. God is One in His essence - nature - substance, but is three in Persons. Since the three Persons within the Godhead are One God, God would not be God if it was possible for any one of the three to be removed from the Godhead. But such a thing is not possible.

The belief that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate and distinct gods who form a triad is called Tri-theism and is not Biblical. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not three different god's. They are but one God subsisting as three Persons who are united by their essence. Trinitarianism is not tritheism.

The limitations of human language and comprehension require us to use terms such as 'Persons' when attempting to describe the Tri-unity of God.

I still haven't got an answer as to what Jesus was before the Incarnation. Was he another spirit in Heaven? If so, did that spirit cease to dwell in Heaven and enter a human body during his time on Earth?

Before His incarnation, Jesus Christ was with God and He was God (John 1:1). He eternally existed as God, co-equal and co-eternal with the other two Persons of the Godhead.

God is Spirit, and therefore, before He incarnated, Jesus Christ, eternally existing as God, was Spirit. All three Persons of the Godhead are Spirit. All three Persons mutually indwelt each other from all eternity past.


Here is part of the Athanasian Creed which may help your understanding:

'That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped.'
Athanasian Creed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jesus Christ did not cease to be in heaven when He incarnated. God is infinite. This means that God transcends the limitations of time and space, both of which are creations of God for His creatures. Jesus Christ did not empty Himself of His deity when He became a man. He simply refrained from the independent use of His deity apart from the Father's plan for the incarnation. Since the time of the incarnation, Jesus Christ has been and will forevermore be in hypostatic union. This means that in the Person of Jesus Christ there are two distinct natures; His human nature, and His divine nature. These two natures are inseparably united, but without any mixing of the attributes of each nature. His deity, though united with His humanity, is separate from His humanity. Therefore, Jesus is not half god and half man, He is fully God and fully man. He is the unique Person of the Universe. I am providing this study on the hypostatic union of Jesus Christ >> > DOCTRINE OF THE HYPOSTATIC UNION AND KENOSIS for you to take a look at if you wish.

What is he now? A glorified physical body in Heaven, recogniseable as a Jewish man in a robe, or an invisible Spirit, like the Holy Spirit? So his purpose was to change form from an invisible spirit into a metaphysical human being who also has the powers of God? So were the persons separate SPIRITS or just aspects/qualities of God, like the gas, liquid, ice analogy?

Since the time of the incarnation, Jesus Christ is the God-Man. He is eternal and infinite God, and true humanity. The humanity of Jesus Christ is currently seated at the right hand of the Father in resurrection body (Heb. 12:2). Notice also that in Heb. 1:8-9 God the Father calls Jesus Christ God. As God, Jesus Christ is everywhere present - omnipresent. However, omnipresence does not imply Pantheism which is the belief that everything is God; i.e. a rock is God, a tree is God, etc... God is not His creation. But God is everywhere present within His creation, as well as everywhere beyond all that has been created.

For the last question I'll refer you to the section above.

So you're saying God the Father was NOT the Creator? Kind of strange...I know it says that Jesus flung the stars into the heavens and all that, but I assumed it was because we were identifying Him with God the Father.

I didn't mean to imply that the Father is not the Creator. Each of the three Persons had a part in creation. As the author and planner of the plan of creation, the Father gave the command to create the Universe, and Jesus Christ performed the actual act of creation. The Holy Spirit's role is described in Genesis chapter one.

What about the idea that Jesus the human being is merely the visible manifestation/immanence of God the Father? Is that unorthodox? Jesus is a separate being also called God? I just don't get how a 'person' can be the same being yet a different 'person.' It's all so confusing it's probably better I just stop thinking about it. I just think many early Church theologians came up with some fanciful ideas which may not represent the truth and the Church quite harshly enforced this belief (burning those who opposed it as heretics). There is probably some truth in the Trinity but it's all about how you understand it. We all have our own personal ideas, like I actually found out until recently that what I believed as a child was more akin to Modalism, even though i had no idea what it was at the time. This was all understood from going to orthodox Christian churches.

You're thinking in human terms. That is, take George and Harry for instance. George is the father and Harry is the son. Harry is the son of George. Now George is George and Harry is Harry. Harry cannot be George, but can only be the son of George. This I think is the problem people have in trying to understand how there can be three Persons within the Godhead and yet be only One God.

But God is not a physical being. That is, He doesn't have a body. The humanity of Jesus Christ does, but not His deity. God is Spirit. Each of the three Persons of the trinity is Spirit. They mutually indwell each other. A glimpse of this can be seen in John 17:21 where Jesus says that the Father is in Him, and He is in the Father.

The personality of Jesus Christ is distinct from the personality of the Father, and from the personality of the Holy Spirit, but they all have the same essence. That is, they are all of the same nature. It is in this way that they are a United One while yet being individuals within the Godhead. Also, they are all always in perfect agreement with each other.


As I said in the other post, we are not able to fully understand who and what God is. In eternity we will have a better understanding. But don't let the limitations of our understanding cause you to reject what the Bible reveals about God.

I hope I said something that helps a little bit. And here is something to ponder. The baby in the cradle was holding the universe together.

[Vizio]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Mormonism teaches that Jesus existed in Heaven as a Spirit prior to His birth in Bethlehem. In other words, His existence as God did not begin with His birth.

How about prior to creation? Has there EVER been a time when Jesus did not exist in Spirit?

We believe that the Godhead is comprised of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. They are physically distinct from one another, but they are "one God" in terms of their unity in will, purpose, mind, heart, knowledge, power, love and in every other conceivable way. If you believe they are "three" in any way, please tell me in what way they are "three."

The Bible does not teach that.

Okay, I'm lost. They are not three individuals, but three persons? How is a person not an individual?

The Bible says that there is one God. But the Bible also says that Jesus is God, as it says the Father is God, and the Spirit is God. All 3 have a will. All 3 can act. All 3 can do everything that an individual can do.....but they are all God.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Trimac20

I still haven't got an answer as to what Jesus was before the Incarnation. Was he another spirit in Heaven?

Yes, He existed in a spirit state, without a body, prior to the Incarnation.

If so, did that spirit cease to dwell in Heaven and enter a human body during his time on Earth?

Yes, Jesus' spirit dwelled in a human body during His time on Earth. His Father remained in Heaven, where He (Jesus) consistently referred to Him (His Father) as being.

What is he now? A glorified physical body in Heaven, recogniseable as a Jewish man in a robe, or an invisible Spirit, like the Holy Spirit?

He is a glorified, physical (but immortal) being in Heaven. His spirit inhabits His body today and will forever more.

As you said, "Maybe we have to re-envisage this whole neat trinity doctrine, or look at it another way." Once you dispense with trying to force God into the mold the 4th and 5th century theologians came up with, it will all start making sense. You simply have to either "look at it another way" or make up your mind that you're going to flat out ignore all of the contradictions inherent in it.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Vizio

How about prior to creation? Has there EVER been a time when Jesus did not exist in Spirit?

No.

The Bible does not teach that.

So what do you think it teaches if you don't think it teaches that they are what I said they are? As a reminder, I said, "they are 'one God' in terms of their unity of will, purpose, mind, heart, knowledge, power, love, etc." What part of that statement do you take issue with?

The Bible says that there is one God. But the Bible also says that Jesus is God, as it says the Father is God, and the Spirit is God. All 3 have a will. All 3 can act. All 3 can do everything that an individual can do.....but they are all God.

Well, I'll be darned. I couldn't have said it better myself.

You missed one question: How is a person not an individual? You say that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three persons, but not not three individuals. Would you mind explaining that?

[Vizio]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

No.



So what do you think it teaches if you don't think it teaches that they are what I said they are?

Page 129 of Mormon Doctrine would disagree with you. It states that he was the first Spirit born in Heaven. You should figure out what your religion actually teaches.

Well, I'll be darned. I couldn't have said it better myself.

You missed one question: How is a person not an individual? You say that there are three persons, but just one individual. Would you mind explaining that?

I can't. I can only tell you what the Bible says, and what far smarter people than I am have concluded.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Vizio

Page 129 of Mormon Doctrine would disagree with you. It states that he was the first Spirit born in Heaven.

So you're up to page 129, huh? What made you decide to read "Mormon Doctrine"? Would you mind posting an exact quote for me?

For your information, the book by that name ("Mormon Doctrine") is merely one person's interpretation of LDS doctrine. Anybody can write a book and call it "Mormon Doctrine" or "Catholic Doctrine" or "Lutheran Doctrine." Its title means nothing. Parts of the book contain very good explanations of LDS doctrine, but it is not and never has been a part of the LDS canon and there are many things in it that are not in accordance with official LDS doctrine. That said, the Bible itself refers to Jesus Christ as "firstborn among many brethren." Since Jesus obviously was not the first person to be born on earth, what do you believe "firstborn among many brethren" to mean with respect to Jesus Christ? Now, it's always possible that I misunderstood your question. If that's the case, there is a better way to clear things up than the way you're going about it.

You should figure out what your religion actually teaches.

Please, don't insult me. I have an infinitely better understanding of Mormon doctrine than you do.

I can't. I can only tell you what the Bible says, and what far smarter people than I am have concluded.

No, the Bible doesn't say that at all. It never once says that "there are three persons, but just one individual." Now maybe people far smarter than you have concluded that. Not having any idea of how smart you may or may not be, I'm not in a position to argue with you there. I'm simply asking you what the difference is between a person and an individual, and you can't give me a straightforward answer. You are simply parroting what someone else has said. It's one thing to accept certain things on faith; faith is an essential part of being a Christian. I'm just asking that you define your terms, and that's not an unreasonable request.

[Rabbidave]

It's been a long time since hearing the term incarnation a term established centuries ago by the catholic faith. I believe the incarnation is when YHWH, Yaweh, YAWH, Yahoshua Ha' Mashiah, Adoni, God became flesh in the form of Jesus Christ. The trinity (another non biblical term by catholicism yet nice) is a mystery, many can dissect it within a resonable interpretation. Anyway Jesus became as the saying goes incarnated probably when the Holy Spirit conceived Jesus during Hanukkah in late Decenber 4 BC (Julian) perhaps while mary was in temple praying? It has been confirmed by astronomers that the moon was at the head of virgo (conception) and 9 months later Jesus was born ironically on that 9/11 when the moon was at the foot of virgo (birth). Jesus was human and sinless. Theorectically one can say God became flesh at jesus conception. The word (God) became flesh Jesus! Messiah!(not really rocket science to a christian but natually supernatural in every respect. As far as the Holy Spirit most of us just refer to the Holy Spirit as the spirit of God (simple enough a HE/HIS) but there are also many who believe that God is gender neutral. To me Jesus acknowledged God as HE since Jesuswas the image of God (male) . In Genesis though God said "Let US make man (both man and woman) in OUR image. Father Son and mother (family of the Godhead) . Ruach Hoko'desh or hebrew for adoni/comforter and has a feminine referrence or SHE but the Greek translators decided to go with HE? So the english became "He". Something to chew on? In Christ, dave