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Old 11-13-2012, 02:23 PM
 
Location: Lakeland, FL
154 posts, read 208,524 times
Reputation: 74

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
The ones showing up now in hell they turn up the oven on them so they are roasted through the same, there's a glass front too so all those who believe in such a scenario can watch with the lamb . Can you believe it ?. You will end up there if you don't
Ok, lol, rolling on the floor and all that, but I want serious or at least mature discussion for the posited situations at hand, because at the very least it brings up food for thought if not bringing up clashing biblical truths.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:24 PM
 
Location: Northern Wisconsin
10,379 posts, read 10,850,449 times
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To the OP: It is best not to try to figure something out in the Bible with too much human logic. Its best just to take the words what they say and believe.

Mt 25:45 “He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ Mt 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Lk 16:23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.Lk 16:24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

Eph 5:5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Eph 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.

These verses, along with many others like them can be shown to teach the same thing. Christ came and paid for the sins of all mankind by his death on the cross. He commanded his disciples and followers to preach the Gospel in His name, promising that those who believe would be saved, but also warning that those who reject or die in unbelief will perish eternally.

"How is this possible?" is a common question. As the Bible says "with God all things are possible" God does what we consider impossible, raises the dead, floods the earth, takes on human flesh and becomes God and man in one person. Just because we can't do certain things, doesn't mean God cannot. Since these are God's words and His words are truth, He does not lie, it is best to listen and act accordingly. After all, think about it.

Lots of people on this forum will say that eventually everyone goes to heaven, but if that's true, then why would Jesus lie, why would Jesus command his disciples to sacrifice everything for Him and the spread of the Gospel if it wasn't true? No, its best to take the simple words Jesus gives us and believe.

Mt 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. Mt 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. (Some reject fire in hell, but destruction doesn't sound too good either)
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:34 PM
 
Location: Lakeland, FL
154 posts, read 208,524 times
Reputation: 74
Yeah, I find this pretty ironclad and is my present mindset at the moment. But still, questions remain.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:37 PM
 
63,461 posts, read 39,726,177 times
Reputation: 7792
Default Eternal Fire?

Oh please stop this infernal quibbling over ancient ignorant superstition. God is the only thing eternal and our God is a consuming Fire of Love. The only punishment will be self-inflicted anguish, remorse and regret (weeping and gnashing of teeth) from viewing what we have selfishly or ignorantly done (and cannot undo) through the eyes of God's pure love and understanding.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:40 PM
 
Location: New England
37,336 posts, read 28,087,833 times
Reputation: 2741
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkylightMike231 View Post
Ok, lol, rolling on the floor and all that, but I want serious or at least mature discussion for the posited situations at hand, because at the very least it brings up food for thought if not bringing up clashing biblical truths.
Well to be honest I was formerly one who believed in eternal torment,and have no problem stating that I must have taken leave of my senses and couldnt have been anything other than immature to believe such a place existed.

Now I have child like faith that our Heavenly Father is Love, which is also immature in the eyes of many if you don't believe in a god of wrath and vengeance too.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:47 PM
 
Location: Free State of Texas
20,392 posts, read 12,668,457 times
Reputation: 2479
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prairieparson View Post
To the OP: It is best not to try to figure something out in the Bible with too much human logic. Its best just to take the words what they say and believe.

Mt 25:45 “He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ Mt 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Lk 16:23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.Lk 16:24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

Eph 5:5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Eph 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.

These verses, along with many others like them can be shown to teach the same thing. Christ came and paid for the sins of all mankind by his death on the cross. He commanded his disciples and followers to preach the Gospel in His name, promising that those who believe would be saved, but also warning that those who reject or die in unbelief will perish eternally.

"How is this possible?" is a common question. As the Bible says "with God all things are possible" God does what we consider impossible, raises the dead, floods the earth, takes on human flesh and becomes God and man in one person. Just because we can't do certain things, doesn't mean God cannot. Since these are God's words and His words are truth, He does not lie, it is best to listen and act accordingly. After all, think about it.

Lots of people on this forum will say that eventually everyone goes to heaven, but if that's true, then why would Jesus lie, why would Jesus command his disciples to sacrifice everything for Him and the spread of the Gospel if it wasn't true? No, its best to take the simple words Jesus gives us and believe.

Mt 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. Mt 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. (Some reject fire in hell, but destruction doesn't sound too good either)
Couldn't rep you, but this is right on!
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:10 PM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,295 posts, read 9,659,947 times
Reputation: 17805
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prairieparson View Post
To the OP: It is best not to try to figure something out in the Bible with too much human logic. Its best just to take the words what they say and believe.

Mt 25:45 “He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ Mt 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Lk 16:23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.Lk 16:24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

Eph 5:5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Eph 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.

These verses, along with many others like them can be shown to teach the same thing. Christ came and paid for the sins of all mankind by his death on the cross. He commanded his disciples and followers to preach the Gospel in His name, promising that those who believe would be saved, but also warning that those who reject or die in unbelief will perish eternally.

"How is this possible?" is a common question. As the Bible says "with God all things are possible" God does what we consider impossible, raises the dead, floods the earth, takes on human flesh and becomes God and man in one person. Just because we can't do certain things, doesn't mean God cannot. Since these are God's words and His words are truth, He does not lie, it is best to listen and act accordingly. After all, think about it.

Lots of people on this forum will say that eventually everyone goes to heaven, but if that's true, then why would Jesus lie, why would Jesus command his disciples to sacrifice everything for Him and the spread of the Gospel if it wasn't true? No, its best to take the simple words Jesus gives us and believe.

Mt 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. Mt 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. (Some reject fire in hell, but destruction doesn't sound too good either)
Amen... excellent post !!
Jesus is not a liar.... and just like you said, "why would Jesus command his disciples to sacrifice everything for Him and the spread of the Gospel if it wasn't true?"

All one has to do is really think about all that Jesus warned about with sin, repenting, and being baptized and following Him in their lives can figure out this that is spoken about in the Scripture, eternal separation from God, hell, is definitely in the plan for those who will not believe, confess and receive Him as their Savior.... goodness that is why He is called our Savior !!
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:10 PM
 
6,657 posts, read 8,087,789 times
Reputation: 750
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prairieparson View Post
To the OP: It is best not to try to figure something out in the Bible with too much human logic. Its best just to take the words what they say and believe.

Mt 25:45 “He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ Mt 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Lk 16:23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.Lk 16:24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

Eph 5:5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Eph 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.

These verses, along with many others like them can be shown to teach the same thing. Christ came and paid for the sins of all mankind by his death on the cross. He commanded his disciples and followers to preach the Gospel in His name, promising that those who believe would be saved, but also warning that those who reject or die in unbelief will perish eternally.

"How is this possible?" is a common question. As the Bible says "with God all things are possible" God does what we consider impossible, raises the dead, floods the earth, takes on human flesh and becomes God and man in one person. Just because we can't do certain things, doesn't mean God cannot. Since these are God's words and His words are truth, He does not lie, it is best to listen and act accordingly. After all, think about it.

Lots of people on this forum will say that eventually everyone goes to heaven, but if that's true, then why would Jesus lie, why would Jesus command his disciples to sacrifice everything for Him and the spread of the Gospel if it wasn't true? No, its best to take the simple words Jesus gives us and believe.

Mt 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. Mt 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. (Some reject fire in hell, but destruction doesn't sound too good either)
Prairieperson, the OP was looking at the words to see what they mean - not simply believe what other men teach.

So Matt 25:46 can be understood to mean the punishment is eternal, but not the punishing. See the difference?

Verses like Ephesian 5:5 don't prove that immoral, impure, greedy are roasting eternally in fire. There is no verse says or even implies such a thing. It just means they won't be in God's Kingdom. For the record, we are all immoral, impure, greedy at some point, yet God can convert people... understand the meaning?

Matt 7:13 is not talking about hell at all - it doesn't even use the word. It is talking about life. So again, to the point of the OP - AGAIN no reference to anyone eternally burning. Yet that is what many try to imply.

So it is not so easy to simply "believe" when actually you are saying "believe what I teach".

PS No where in Luke 16 does it say the rich man is tormented forever...
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:17 PM
 
6,657 posts, read 8,087,789 times
Reputation: 750
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
I have a question and am no Bible scholar, so forgive me.

It just seems so obvious to me, but again, not knowing the Bible well enough, I could be missing something.

When people reference "eternal fire," "eternal flames," "the fire that is never quenched," etc...why couldn't this literally be referencing the fire itself, not "punishment" eternally? I mean...why wouldn't it mean that the fire one is being thrown into for being such a baddie/not accepting Christ/etc. is what's eternal, that that fire never goes out and the threat is that you can never outlive the possibility of ending up there and instantly burning up...in other words, dying, going unconscious right then?

Why does "eternal fire" mean you're eternally in agony in it? You go into the fire, you poof, that's probably the end...right? Or am I taking this all too literally? Not literally enough? I know there are references to people in hell being in torment (i.e. Lazarus crying out) but where does it say that this punishment was forever...v. just the fire pit itself being forever available for sinners?

ETA: Also, wouldn't "forever" mean the person's forever? All the days a person is conscious of until he dies/is no longer conscious/can't feel pain/punishment?

I hope this question makes sense.

There are biblical references to some people's punishment being "more than others." If hell is the place you get tossed into forever and ever, how could your forever and ever be...more than someone else's? (Unless as I suggested above, "forever" just means until the person's physical death.) You know? That doesn't make any sense. Or is it saying the actual pain itself, which goes on forever and ever, is less for some/double for others, etc.? Like for instance, for some people whose sins were only kind of meh, the devil comes up to them once a day and gives them a paper cut or something v. eating the person's eyeballs or disembowling the person or what-have-you-gross-torment?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torpedos View Post
When Hell is mentioned in the bible, it has 4 different meanings. But most hardcore church goers will not even consider that. They will tell you it mean a lake where people will burn. Here are the 4: shoel, hades, gehenna, and tartarus. Neither of them mean the " lake of fire". But hardcore churchgoers will make it mean that no matter what you say. A good example is jonah, it say that he was in hell. i am sure most never heard that, so here it is : Jonah 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, [and] thou heardest my voice.

so hell has a belly? jonah was in hell? to church goers that was not literal. most people of religion choose wehre it is literal and where it is not. That is the problem. This thread is gonna be all over the place. Go ahead a do a study on the word "forever", you will be suprized at what you find.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
No one is ever tormented in hell/Gehenna. The last verse of Isaiah 66 says that their dead bodies are cast into Gehenna where the worm is not ceasing or the fires not quenched.

But the fires eventually will go out because this old earth will be replaced with a new heavens and new earth.

Even all the people who go into the lake of fire WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH (not life in flames), will come forth out of that death later on as 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 reveal to us.
JerZ, good questions, and good answers.

You are quite right - there are many understandings of "eternal" and "forever" and "hell", beyond what basic church-rhetoric teaches (ie. "Believe in Hell or you will burn there forever").

If you want to learn the truth, you must question. It is how we learn.
Rote acceptance without understanding leads you away from the truth.
So keep asking questions... we have to dig into what the words really meant.
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:18 PM
 
Location: Lakeland, FL
154 posts, read 208,524 times
Reputation: 74
Quote:
So Matt 25:46 can be understood to mean the punishment is eternal, but not the punishing. See the difference?
???
How on earth can punishment be separate from punishing, when the punishment comes from the punishing and vice versa?? And who's to say the definitions or limits of what punishment can be? And why even say punishment is not forever if no one is on the receiving end of the punishment? Who else is in their place if nobody else? WHO is being punished eternally? I really can't wrap my head around it. It makes no sense.
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