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So Matt 25:46 can be understood to mean the punishment is eternal, but not the punishing. See the difference?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkylightMike231
???
How on earth can punishment be separate from punishing, when the punishment comes from the punishing and vice versa?? And who's to say the definitions or limits of what punishment can be? And why even say punishment is not forever if no one is on the receiving end of the punishment? Who else is in their place if nobody else? WHO is being punished eternally? I really can't wrap my head around it. It makes no sense.
I understood the first quote completely. He was saying the punishment was eternal - in other words, it could not be gone back on - but the actual punishing, the flames or what-have-you, doesn't have to be forever. If you're killed, you're dead eternally; that doesn't mean you keep dying and dying and dying and dying painfully every day forever. It just means you're dead forever. It can't be gone back on. (In this example.)
At least that's the way I took it.
ETA: I don't understand your last question about who is being punished eternally. I don't know. I hope no one.
???
How on earth can punishment be separate from punishing, when the punishment comes from the punishing and vice versa?? And who's to say the definitions or limits of what punishment can be? And why even say punishment is not forever if no one is on the receiving end of the punishment? Who else is in their place if nobody else? WHO is being punished eternally? I really can't wrap my head around it. It makes no sense.
No one is being punished eternally.
Let me try to explain it more clearly.
Eternal punishment would refer to a punishment that has a final, lasting, eternal effect. Perhaps the punishment results in a permanent change or permanent loss, and this change lasts forever.
Eternal punishing would refer to a punishing that lasts/continues forever. This would be your traditional eternal torture view. Note this is not what the bible says.
See the difference?
This doesn't even get into the debate of whether "eternal" is the right adjective here.
I understood the first quote completely. He was saying the punishment was eternal - in other words, it could not be gone back on - but the actual punishing, the flames or what-have-you, doesn't have to be forever. If you're killed, you're dead eternally; that doesn't mean you keep dying and dying and dying and dying painfully every day forever. It just means you're dead forever. It can't be gone back on. (In this example.)
At least that's the way I took it.
ETA: I don't understand your last question about who is being punished eternally. I don't know. I hope no one.
Yes, that is right.
And note under this idea, "eternal punishment" doesn't necessarily imply annihilation. It could also result in a permanent correction or reconciliation - God does say He will reconcile all things back to Himself...
The father punishes the child for correction, not for torment, though torment is sometimes experienced...
Trust me, I've read a thousand different Heaven/Hell testimonies from people who actually went there and the flames and fire of Hell described in the Bible are 100% real. Your soul will literally be on fire and burn for an eternity. Just avoid going to Hell all together by choosing and accepting Jesus Christ as your savior. He died on the cross so that you may be saved. He loves you so much. Know your worth to him. Choose him and choose Heaven. He has great things planned for you in the kingdom!
Trust me, I've read a thousand different Heaven/Hell testimonies from people who actually went there and the flames and fire of Hell described in the Bible are 100% real. Your soul will literally be on fire and burn for an eternity. Just avoid going to Hell all together by choosing and accepting Jesus Christ as your savior. He died on the cross so that you may be saved. He loves you so much. Know your worth to him. Choose him and choose Heaven. He has great things planned for you in the kingdom!
No wonder you are sold out to it. We are what we read into things.
Some years ago I was attending a Friday night prayer meeting , and at this meeting I witnesses God eternal fire ....What I seen was bright flashes like camera flashes going off all over the prayer meeting , And the light was pure white in color...No one in the prayer meeting could see this lights and no body was alarmed in any way... These white flashes continued for about three minutes and then the lights stopped and the prayer meeting continued, like nothing happened ....... Later I told a believer and they said `Holy Spirit was moving in that meeting ``
Ok, I've read the replies to my query, but I am still not throughly convinced. This is what you guys had to say on the definitions of punishment and eternity:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ
I understood the first quote completely. He was saying the punishment was eternal - in other words, it could not be gone back on - but the actual punishing, the flames or what-have-you, doesn't have to be forever. If you're killed, you're dead eternally; that doesn't mean you keep dying and dying and dying and dying painfully every day forever. It just means you're dead forever. It can't be gone back on. (In this example.)
At least that's the way I took it.
ETA: I don't understand your last question about who is being punished eternally. I don't know. I hope no one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
No one is being punished eternally.
Let me try to explain it more clearly.
Eternal punishment would refer to a punishment that has a final, lasting, eternal effect. Perhaps the punishment results in a permanent change or permanent loss, and this change lasts forever.
Eternal punishing would refer to a punishing that lasts/continues forever. This would be your traditional eternal torture view. Note this is not what the bible says.
See the difference?
This doesn't even get into the debate of whether "eternal" is the right adjective here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
Yes, that is right.
And note under this idea, "eternal punishment" doesn't necessarily imply annihilation. It could also result in a permanent correction or reconciliation - God does say He will reconcile all things back to Himself...
The father punishes the child for correction, not for torment, though torment is sometimes experienced...
And here's what Merriam-Webster dictionary defined them as:
Eternal:
1
a : having infinite duration : everlasting <eternal damnation>
b : of or relating to eternity
c : characterized by abiding fellowship with God <good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life? — Mark 10:17(Revised Standard Version)>
2
a : continued without intermission : perpetual <an eternal flame>
b : seemingly endless <eternal delays>
3
archaic : infernal <some eternal villain … devised this slander — Shakespeare>
4
: valid or existing at all times : timeless <eternal verities>
Source: Eternal - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
So the way I've come to understand punishment all of my life, as defined, is an active act, not dormant one or the effects of an act. And eternal means just that. Why would God use words that wouldn't convey things He clearly wants people to avoid? Why mask it under a "figurative language" that only "certain people" can go underneath to find its true meaning? It's just too much trouble for nothing. And forgive me if I'm frank, but it sounds to me like you guys are trying to twist the original meanings of the words anyone can understand without layers of depth. Correct me if I'm wrong, please.
And you can't dismiss this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by allenk893
Trust me, I've read a thousand different Heaven/Hell testimonies from people who actually went there and the flames and fire of Hell described in the Bible are 100% real. Your soul will literally be on fire and burn for an eternity. Just avoid going to Hell all together by choosing and accepting Jesus Christ as your savior. He died on the cross so that you may be saved. He loves you so much. Know your worth to him. Choose him and choose Heaven. He has great things planned for you in the kingdom!
Were all of these people somehow coincidentally under strong delusion that happen to line up, or is there something more to their experiences? we can't just write them off, as countless people have had them, so this is very strong evidence of the punishments of the afterlife for the wicked.
*Sorry for the long post, wanted to line everything up as neatly as I could for easy(er) analysis and comparisons of the quotes/facts. I'll be headed for resst now, lol.*
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Yes 'eternal fire' is used in scripture and in other places to refer to fires which do not burn eternally, but the thing they consume is gone forever. You are right here.
Yes 'eternal fire' is used in scripture and in other places to refer to fires which do not burn eternally, but the thing they consume is gone forever. You are right here.
I actually believe God the Eternal fire, is on fire for us and burns in love for the world. Hard to accept when you believe He is going to burn you up for not believing that He loves us so.
Talk about throwing the baby out with the bath water
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