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Old 11-18-2012, 09:13 AM
 
810 posts, read 1,433,444 times
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The parallel between Jesus and Moses has always been helpful in this situation. Moses was leading the people of Isreal, but made the mistake of taking the credit for the water out of the rock rather than giving credit to God. To the contrary...Jesus never took credit but instead gave credit to God. He is leading the Christian congregation today, like Moses led the Isrealites...however Jesus has taught his followers that his father is God Almighty.
John 17 is fabulous! No...the entire BOOK of John....No, the ENTIRE bible is fabulous!

Last edited by beeveenh; 11-18-2012 at 09:29 AM.. Reason: Addition...
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:12 AM
 
698 posts, read 644,889 times
Reputation: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2] He was in the beginning with God. 3] All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 14] And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Revelation 19:13 [Speaking of Jesus Christ who is about to return from heaven at the end of the Tribulation] 'He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.' Jesus Christ IS the Word of God.


John 1:1 states not only that the Word was with God, but that He was God. Revelation 19:13 identifies Jesus Christ as the Word of God.

From that alone, it shoud be obvious to anyone that Jesus Christ is God. But those of you who deny that Jesus Christ is God measure truth by your ability to comprehend it. If you don't understand it then it can't be true. You willfully dismiss the Scriptures that directly state that Jesus Christ is God. And nothing gets through to you.


In denying that Jesus Christ is God, you also deny that He is the Word of God.


And for the poster who claimed that Jesus Christ did not create all that has been created, John 1:3 states that apart from Him (the Word - the preexistent Jesus Christ), nothing came into being that has come into being.
The Classic Hebrew way of reading Jn. 1:1-14 would never come anywhere near interpreting it as meaning that 'Jesus was God’. Mike this is a result of you not reading the passage against its Hebrew background. One way of reading the prologue in Jn. 1:1 is to consider how the ‘Word’ was ABOUT Jesus, rather than him personally preexisting. The theme of all God's word in the Tanakh was ultimately ABOUT Jesus, and that 'Word' became “flesh” (v. 14) in the sense that it was openly revealed in the person of Jesus and the preaching of the Gospel about him in the 1st century. Jesus became the ‘Word’, rather than some time previously. I would argue that this is a much more plausible reading of the author’s intention than the Trinitarian one.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:31 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,941 posts, read 26,170,830 times
Reputation: 16099
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
I do not need someone else to explain Scripture to me...I see he graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary and that is not Hebraic at all...I see that their creed is very Pentecostalish...I see he also teaches the two Messiah theory...Well, he is wrong on the subject where the word 'Hebrew' comes from...I also see that he is Calvinistic...He is also wrong concerning the Dietary Laws...

I see where you obtain your 'compartments of Sheol' from now...
Richard, you're comprehension of the Scriptures is poor. You lack understanding.

For the compartments of Hades, simply see Luke 16:22-26. Jesus also referred to Abraham's bosom as Paradise which is where He told the thief he would be with Him that very day (Luke 23:43).

Here is Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum's biography. He is a Messianic Jew and understands the Hebraic mindset.

Ariel Ministries: Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum

Nor is he a Calvinist in the traditional sense. Here is his statement on salvation.

'We believe that salvation is wholly a work of God's free grace and not the work of man in whole or in part, nor due to man's goodness or religious ceremony; that it is a gift to man received by personal faith at which time the righteousness of Christ is imputed to the sinner, thereby justifying him in God's sight; that those who are saved have been unconditionally elected to salvation in eternity past and have been effectively and irresistibly called by the Holy Spirit.'
Ariel Ministries: Doctrinal Statement

Calvinists believe that one must first be saved before they can believe. As you can see from his doctrinal statement, Dr. Fruchtenbaum states that salvation is a gift which is received by personal fatih.

Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum also did the foreward on a book called 'Calvin on the Ropes,' >> Table of Contents Calvin on the Ropes


Actually, as I recall, You are a Calvinist. You have stated that salvation preceeds faith if I remember correctly.


You also misrepresent what Dallas Seminary teaches. The recognition that the Church began on the day of Pentecost does not imply that it teaches the speaking of tongues which is a belief of Pentecostalism.

Here is Dallas Seminary's doctrinal statement. >> Doctrinal Statement | Dallas Theological Seminary (DTS)

Concerning the speaking of tongues, which again is a belief of Pentecostalism, here is Dallas Seminarys statement on that.

'We believe that some gifts of the Holy Spirit such as speaking in tongues and miraculous healings were temporary. We believe that speaking in tongues was never the common or necessary sign of the baptism nor of the filling of the Spirit, and that the deliverance of the body from sickness or death awaits the consummation of our salvation in the resurrection (Acts 4:8, 31; Rom. 8:23; 1 Cor. 13:8).'
Doctrinal Statement | Dallas Theological Seminary (DTS)

Futhermore, Dr. Fruchtenbaum doe not believe in the Two Messiah theory.

Here is his objection to that theory: from >> bethinking.org - Other Religions - Messianic Prophecies - First Things First

Are we schnorrers, willing to take good gifts from the Messiah, but only if they don't cost us anything in return? We want peace. We want prosperity. We want victory. But most don't want responsibility. We say, "Jesus couldn't have been the Messiah, because Messiah is supposed to bring peace, and Jesus didn't bring peace!"

To this objection, Arnold Fruchtenbaum's response is well taken: “Well, since (Jesus) was not accepted, he could not very well bring peace, could he? Furthermore, the purpose of the Messiah's first coming, or as the early rabbis would have it, the purpose of the coming of the first Messiah, the son of Joseph, was not to bring peace but to suffer and die.”[14]

[14] Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Jesus Was a Jew (Tustin. CA: Ariel Ministries, 1981), p. 91.


He was refuting the theory. Dr. Fruchtenbaum teaches that there is on Messiah who comes twice.

Now, again, Dr. Fruchtenbaum teaches about the Messiah here >> > Ariel Ministries: Come and See


But I also remember you saying something to the effect that you don't trust theologians because they might be lying. Yes Richard. That is why theologians exist. Their sole purpose is to lie to YOU!!! Every day they wake up saying, How can we lie to Richard today!!!

Again Richard, you profess an understanding that you simply do not have.


But all of this is getting off topic. I am not going to engage in an argument with you on how much you think you know.

Last edited by Michael Way; 11-18-2012 at 11:12 AM..
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:45 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,941 posts, read 26,170,830 times
Reputation: 16099
Quote:
Originally Posted by kids in america_ View Post
The Classic Hebrew way of reading Jn. 1:1-14 would never come anywhere near interpreting it as meaning that 'Jesus was God’. Mike this is a result of you not reading the passage against its Hebrew background. One way of reading the prologue in Jn. 1:1 is to consider how the ‘Word’ was ABOUT Jesus, rather than him personally preexisting. The theme of all God's word in the Tanakh was ultimately ABOUT Jesus, and that 'Word' became “flesh” (v. 14) in the sense that it was openly revealed in the person of Jesus and the preaching of the Gospel about him in the 1st century. Jesus became the ‘Word’, rather than some time previously. I would argue that this is a much more plausible reading of the author’s intention than the Trinitarian one.
Quite to the contrary. The purpose of the gospel of John was to emphasize Jesus' deity.

Further, the Jews who did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah sought to stone Jesus because they understood that He was claiming to be God.

John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 10:33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

The Jews understood that Jesus was claiming to be God and for that reason sought to kill Him.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:49 AM
 
Location: Florida
595 posts, read 758,999 times
Reputation: 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Obviously, this question is directed at those who claim to be believers in Jesus Christ, but who deny that He is God.


Jesus Christ is both God and man. The Word became man. John 1:1-3 compared with John 1:14 and Phil. 2:5-8. He did not cease to be God when He became man. Revelation 19:13 [Speaking of Jesus Christ who is about to return from heaven at the end of the Tribulation] 'He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.' Jesus Christ IS the Word of God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2] He was in the beginning with God. 3] All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 14] And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.



Col. 1:16 For by [in] Him [Jesus Christ who preexisted as God] all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through [dia - Jesus Christ is the agent of creation; He did the actual act of creation] Him and for Him. 17] He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Phil 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6] who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7] but emptied Himself [not of His deity, but of the independent use of His deity apart from the Father's plan for the incarnation. Satan tempted Jesus to use His deity independently of the Father's plan which called for Him to rely on the Holy Spirit, to turn stones into bread as stated in Matthew 4:3-4. There were occasions however when Jesus legitimately used His own deity during the First Advent], taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8] Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.




Now, here is the question, or three questions in one. Based ONLY on the verses given above, please please give a direct answer, rather than an evasive answer. Please do not bring in other verses which you think refute these verses I am asking you to base your answer on.


*** Did Jesus Christ preexist as God and did He create all that has been created, and is Jesus Christ holding all things together? YES or NO!!! ***

If you say 'YES', and yet deny that Jesus Christ is God, then you are saying that someone other than God created the universe. See Genesis 1:1.

If you say 'NO', then you deny what is revealed in John 1:1-3, Col. 1:16-17 and Phil. 2:5-8.
Beautiful Scripture!

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

God Bless,
Mercy
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:54 AM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,295 posts, read 9,661,585 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mercy777 View Post
Beautiful Scripture!

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

God Bless,
Mercy
Amen.... perfect scripture among many that.... "Jesus Christ is both God and Man."

Blessings to you !!
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:54 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,941 posts, read 26,170,830 times
Reputation: 16099
Quote:
Originally Posted by clickinmx View Post
Sorry for changing the subject breifly .
mike 555 this is your thread and your debate have i offended you personly in any way.?
Or in other words given anyone a good reason for deleting my posts other than arrogance .
Ask the moderators concerning any deletions of your posts, or portions of your posts.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:59 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,941 posts, read 26,170,830 times
Reputation: 16099
Quote:
Originally Posted by mercy777 View Post
Beautiful Scripture!

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

God Bless,
Mercy
I agree. It is beautiful Scripture.
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Old 11-18-2012, 12:02 PM
 
74 posts, read 143,197 times
Reputation: 26
God needed to see blood for sin , Or a sacrifice for sin.
I assume we have common ground on this .
Now i dont understand why he would give himself as a sacrifice for sin?

I have tried to ask this before and it was cut.

If this question is off the topic then what is the point of this thread?

If this is your belief then it must have a base,
a center. You wish to convince others he is God , but why ,.? what is my gain?
I believe he gave his son , as abraham gave his out of love . And that he is the portal to the father .
Now if you wish to take the faith and the belief from my youth and shatter it to pieces, you will not do so by haveing people cut legitimant questions.

And my question is simply this.
If God did not give his only begotten son then where the hell are we.
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Old 11-18-2012, 12:20 PM
 
19,942 posts, read 17,109,556 times
Reputation: 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by clickinmx View Post
God needed to see blood for sin , Or a sacrifice for sin.
I assume we have common ground on this .
Now i dont understand why he would give himself as a sacrifice for sin?

I have tried to ask this before and it was cut.

If this question is off the topic then what is the point of this thread?

If this is your belief then it must have a base,
a center. You wish to convince others he is God , but why ,.? what is my gain?
I believe he gave his son , as abraham gave his out of love . And that he is the portal to the father .
Now if you wish to take the faith and the belief from my youth and shatter it to pieces, you will not do so by haveing people cut legitimant questions.

And my question is simply this.
If God did not give his only begotten son then where the hell are we.
Only God is perfect. Only a perfect sacrifice is acceptable. The book of Hebrews goes into that. The priest, who offers sacrifices for the people, first has to offer one for himself. His sacrifice is only good for a time. Jesus offered one for all time. Only as God can he do that.
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