U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 11-18-2012, 11:39 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,437,909 times
Reputation: 989

Advertisements

Christians often have myopic vision when looking at Christ. Rather than focus on what is of supreme importance as to what He accomplished in His death, burial and resurrection, Christians would rather focus on Who Christ is.

The Bible has much much more to say about what Christ did in His obedience to God and how that affects all mankind than it says about Who Christ is.

Focusing on who Christ is takes us away from the true goal Christ accomplished.

Now then, one may say "If Christ is not God then His sacrifice means nothing." Oh, really? Is that a fact? I would say "If Christ is not the Son OF God" and did the Father's will and was obedient unto death that His sacrifice means nothing.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-18-2012, 11:46 AM
 
19,952 posts, read 12,981,273 times
Reputation: 1957
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Christians often have myopic vision when looking at Christ. Rather than focus on what is of supreme importance as to what He accomplished in His death, burial and resurrection, Christians would rather focus on Who Christ is.

The Bible has much much more to say about what Christ did in His obedience to God and how that affects all mankind than it says about Who Christ is.

Focusing on who Christ is takes us away from the true goal Christ accomplished.

Now then, one may say "If Christ is not God then His sacrifice means nothing." Oh, really? Is that a fact? I would say "If Christ is not the Son OF God" and did the Father's will and was obedient unto death that His sacrifice means nothing.
If He isn't God, there is no way that He is qualified to die on behalf of the rest of us. Only God is perfect. The sacrifice requires a perfect, spotless sacrifice.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-18-2012, 12:47 PM
 
20,301 posts, read 15,658,083 times
Reputation: 7415
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Christians often have myopic vision when looking at Christ. Rather than focus on what is of supreme importance as to what He accomplished in His death, burial and resurrection, Christians would rather focus on Who Christ is.

The Bible has much much more to say about what Christ did in His obedience to God and how that affects all mankind than it says about Who Christ is.

Focusing on who Christ is takes us away from the true goal Christ accomplished.

Now then, one may say "If Christ is not God then His sacrifice means nothing." Oh, really? Is that a fact? I would say "If Christ is not the Son OF God" and did the Father's will and was obedient unto death that His sacrifice means nothing.
John 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."

Jesus' reference was to His deity. In certain contexts, 'I am' is a self designation for God. Jesus was stating that He is God. In John 8:58 Jesus stated that before Arbraham was, I am. This was a reference to His preexistence as God. John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

Isaiah 43:10 "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.


Those who do not believe that Jesus Christ is God will die in their sins.

Focusing on who Christ is does not take away from what He accomplished on the Cross. It is only because Jesus Christ is God that his death on the Cross as man was of infinite value.


Furthermore, since that is a gap beween eternal and infinite God and finite man, a gap between the Creator and the creature, only Jesus Christ, who is both God and man could be the mediator between God the Father and man.


Additionally, the believer is commanded to grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior.

2 Peter 3:18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord [reference to deity; His Person] and Savior [reference to His Messiahship; His office] Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.


Do I want to focus on Who Jesus Christ is, and what He did on the Cross? You bet your boots I do!!!

Last edited by Mike555; 11-18-2012 at 01:43 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-18-2012, 01:24 PM
 
17,753 posts, read 8,888,287 times
Reputation: 1493
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
If He isn't God, there is no way that He is qualified to die on behalf of the rest of us. Only God is perfect. The sacrifice requires a perfect, spotless sacrifice.
It appears to me that the death of Jesus was brought about through human volition, given the political and religious powers of the day. Although at the same time, Jesus was fully aware that his message and what he represented to the status quo would ultimately lead to a violent death. Thus, his life was an issue in setting the captives free from the established sects of the day. But his death was not divinely foreordained as a penal substitution, whereas, there is no greater love than to lay one's own life down for that of another. Many are fixated on Jesus' death, and will accept nothing but the blood of Jesus, as "they know not, what they do." Although, there is only ONE whose undeniable innocence (not an ordinary victim) was able to change the process of scapegoating (a slaughterhouse religion with a ritual, carnivorous diet). And it is a saving act of God; a victory over the powers of this world (men) and a defeat of death, reversing it through his Life and Resurrection. The cross may, indeed be, the centerpiece of the Christian religion, but it is not God's altar. Rather, it is the gospel which was/is/will end all bloodshed, not that of merely exchanging victims (bulls and goats for that of Christ as a substitution). It was a sacrifice to end all sacrificing. Let's not make it a prescription for suffering death, but ONE of LIFE.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-18-2012, 02:26 PM
 
37,531 posts, read 25,255,858 times
Reputation: 5857
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
If He isn't God, there is no way that He is qualified to die on behalf of the rest of us. Only God is perfect. The sacrifice requires a perfect, spotless sacrifice.
God does not, did not, and cannot die. Only humans can . . . and only a human can achieve what we humans are supposed to achieve before death. Christ was human and DID achieve it, perfectly . . . what we humans seem only to be able to achieve imperfectly.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-18-2012, 03:12 PM
 
25,419 posts, read 24,183,342 times
Reputation: 23857
I'm a crazy heathen but I choose: neither of the above options. I'd say Jesus' life accomplished something, whether he was literally supernatural or not. (Not the church, I'm not sure I consider that an accomplishment.) He brought to light a lot of basic, fundamental truths, IMO, and gave people the hope and idea that there was/is something bigger than themselves, in a comforting way.

As for the more brimstone type talk, not sure how I feel about that part. But if you're seeking opinions on what accomplished anything regarding Jesus, I'd say it was his life and not his death nor supernatural status.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-18-2012, 03:23 PM
 
37,531 posts, read 25,255,858 times
Reputation: 5857
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
I'm a crazy heathen but I choose: neither of the above options. I'd say Jesus' life accomplished something, whether he was literally supernatural or not. (Not the church, I'm not sure I consider that an accomplishment.) He brought to light a lot of basic, fundamental truths, IMO, and gave people the hope and idea that there was/is something bigger than themselves, in a comforting way.

As for the more brimstone type talk, not sure how I feel about that part. But if you're seeking opinions on what accomplished anything regarding Jesus, I'd say it was his life and not his death nor supernatural status.
Crazy heathen or not, you are definitely intuitively responding to an underlying truth that does escape most of humanity. We consider everything physical or material to be "real" components of our reality . . . but for some reason we leave out what we produce in our consciousness. Not to get too Off Topic, metaphysical or over the head here . . . but what becomes a part of human consciousness is every bit a "real" part of our reality as any other "energy transformations" we can measure and observe.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-18-2012, 03:55 PM
 
Location: Florida -
8,248 posts, read 10,013,904 times
Reputation: 15121
Jesus was repeatedly asked, "By whose authority do you (perform miracles, declare God's truth, ... or (extended) 'give your life as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind', rise from the dead,' 'forgive sin', declare yourself and God to be one', 'fulfill hundreds of Messianic prophecies' ... etc". Christ's deity is His identity in which the authority of His works, teaching, truths and mission are established. If He was not "God incarnate; the Messiah", (as He declared and showed Himself to be), then He is likewise, NOT the Savior and Lord of mankind!

If, as some suggest, He was only a "great man, prophet, religious leader... but, only a man, then His authority (and more, our accountability to His authority) is no greater than other "great" man,... or even ourselves. Isn't that, in fact, at the heart of the rejection of Christ by so many who declare Him no different or greater than Mohammed, Buddha, Sun Moon or any other 'religious' figure in history? Indeed, if Jesus Christ is not God, then who are we (believers and disciples of Christ)?

When commanding disciples of all times, (following His death and resurrection!), Jesus again affirmed His deity, "All authority is given to me in both heaven and earth .... and lo, I am with you always even unto the ends of the earth." No, any denial of the divine identity and authority of Christ is not simply a 'theological nit.' It is a rejection of God's Truth and the very Lordship of Christ Himself.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-18-2012, 04:00 PM
 
37,531 posts, read 25,255,858 times
Reputation: 5857
Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
Jesus was repeatedly asked, "By whose authority do you (perform miracles, declare God's truth, ... or (extended) 'give your life as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind', rise from the dead,' 'forgive sin', declare yourself and God to be one', 'fulfill hundreds of Messianic prophecies' ... etc". Christ's deity is His identity in which the authority of His works, teaching, truths and mission are established. If He was not "God incarnate; the Messiah", (as He declared and showed Himself to be), then He is likewise, NOT the Savior and Lord of mankind!

If, as some suggest, He was only a "great man, prophet, religious leader... but, only a man, then His authority (and more, our accountability to His authority) is no greater than other "great" man,... or even ourselves. Isn't that, in fact, at the heart of the rejection of Christ by so many who declare Him no different or greater than Mohammed, Buddha, Sun Moon or any other 'religious' figure in history? Indeed, if Jesus Christ is not God, then who are we (believers and disciples of Christ)?

When commanding disciples of all times, (following His death and resurrection!), Jesus again affirmed His deity, "All authority is given to me in both heaven and earth .... and lo, I am with you always even unto the ends of the earth." No, any denial of the divine identity and authority of Christ is not simply a 'theological nit.' It is a rejection of God's Truth and the very Lordship of Christ Himself.
You seem to be unnecessarily rejecting a straw man. Christ is the Son of God . . . what more authority does He need than that? He has been given authority by our Father . . . and He will return it when God is all in all.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-18-2012, 04:04 PM
 
25,419 posts, read 24,183,342 times
Reputation: 23857
Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post

Jesus again affirmed His deity, "All authority is given to me in both heaven and earth .... and lo, I am with you always even unto the ends of the earth." No, any denial of the divine identity and authority of Christ is not simply a 'theological nit.' It is a rejection of God's Truth and the very Lordship of Christ Himself.
Actually, doesn't this affirm that he's not deity? If he were, why would he need to have this authority given to him?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top