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Old 11-26-2012, 09:34 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jrhockney View Post

The nature side of this should also not be under represented biblically considering Homosexuality has been virtually proven in many cases to have started in the womb (the brain similarities shown in post #3 would have had to develop in the womb at least if not genetically) and in Psalm 139:13, David says God knit him (which likely means us too) together in the womb...hmm, it just occurred to me that this makes it a little bit harder to blame Homosexuality on the Fall of Man doesn't it? Interesting
With sexual orientation being shown to be biologically fixed at birth, gay brains being structured differently, almost every gay person on Earth saying they never chose to be gay, and have known since they were very young (many of whom prayed God would change their orientation and never did), and almost every animal species on Earth having homosexuals in their populations, the Fundamentalist notion of it being due to the "Fall" or a personal choice is as laughably stupid as those who said the sun revolves around the Earth. God made gays, and rabid anti-gay Fundies are going to need to get a clue and realize that.
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Old 11-26-2012, 09:38 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Oleg Bach View Post
Nothing wrong with being deeply in love with another human being. Nothing wrong with loving the opposite sex or the same sex. It is questionable that this so-called love manifests it self in some sort of sexual form. I could never understand how a homosexual who finds woman beautiful does not consider the female in a sexual way? Why they find having sex with a woman is repulsive but sodomizing or having oral sex with the same sex is not....It just strikes me as odd.
Not all gays find the opposite sex repulsive. They just feel no arousal, or "butterfly" feelings when thinking about the opposite sex. It shouldn't be that hard to grasp. What do you feel when you see a good looking person of the same-sex? Do you feel aroused, excited, interested? Whatever that feeling is, imagine the opposite and you have gay people.

Quote:
I wondered as a kid why homosexuality existed...and what it really was.. What was clear to me back then was the simple fact that some people are so deeply in love with themselves that they only way they can express that love FOR THEM SELVES is to have sex WITH THEM SELVES. So they opt for the same sex which is probably as close as you can get to fulfilling that supposed self love- I really don't believe there is any real love involved in the homosexual act...It is all about yourself and not another person.
Moderator cut: attacking

Last edited by june 7th; 11-26-2012 at 09:31 PM..
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Old 11-26-2012, 11:11 AM
 
2,541 posts, read 2,523,846 times
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Originally Posted by Jaymax View Post
Sexual orientation is not just about 'desire/lust' or sexual behavior. It's about who you love and how you think. Gay and lesbian people are no different to straight people in that they love, dream, hope, pray, have aspirations, have careers, have families (many have children).

But all anti-gay conservatives seem to think about are sex acts. It's a way of dehumanizing gay and lesbian people to make it easier to condemn them. Do they think about only sex acts when they think of straight people? No.
You are right. Sexual orientation goes much deeper than the physical act. That is why I was careful to point out that self effort, repression, or denial will not change anyone and that goes for heterosexuals also who sin in other ways such as commit fornication, adultery, murder, steal or are just plain unloving. I don't go around making a point of condemning in your face or expecting people to change without the Power of the Gospel.

There is good in everyone. All that is good about any gay or heterosexual comes from God because man without The Tree of Life still can and does eat from the The Tree of the Knowlege of Good and Evil. So in all there is some good but tainted with evil that weighs down the spirit. But God has a higher goodness reserved for those who want to eat of the Fruit that comes only from The Tree of Eternal Life. He being the creator of life knows for sure what life should be like but it is not because mankind rejects the Annointed One. But to those who do receive, they can attest to the Truth that to them belongs the Power and Glory forever as a free gift.

The same God who can change the caterpillar into an entirerly differant creature is the only one who can change the heart of anyone whether gay or heterosexual. But one must want that change and go to Christ for it not man. The person who posted the topic asked a question and I tried to answer it according to how God see things not how doctors of social behavior see things. It is written, "With man nothing is posible but with God all things are possible." Man as you know, has opinions to no end, but in Christ only is the Way, the Truth and Eternal Life.
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Old 11-26-2012, 02:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jrhockney View Post
Yeah except that the people here arguing against you and the rest of fundamentalist Christianity are also arguing against the meaning and translation of many of the very bible verses you post as well, and given the cultural context and the various differing translations of many of these verses over time, they may have a very good reason for doing so. Also, given that the nature/psychology side of this argument also appears to conflict with fundamentalist understandings, they might have even more reason.

The nature side of this should also not be under represented biblically considering Homosexuality has been virtually proven in many cases to have started in the womb (the brain similarities shown in post #3 would have had to develop in the womb at least if not genetically) and in Psalm 139:13, David says God knit him (which likely means us too) together in the womb...hmm, it just occurred to me that this makes it a little bit harder to blame Homosexuality on the Fall of Man doesn't it? Interesting
Actually, what I said still stands and can't be shaken, torn down or successfully argued away. The Bible is very clear on homosexuality. There can be no mistake in translating or interpreting those verses when so much context is given. Anyone arguing, or splitting hairs over semantics, is doing so to justify how they want it to be instead of accepting what God so clearly says in His Word. And I say the same thing to those who are cruel and hateful towards homosexuals. That's not biblical either. To those who are cruel, they need to be aware that they will be judged by God for their sins with the same fervency that they judge others for theirs. That includes how they treat homosexuals. It's possible to love people while NOT condoning their sin.

The disagreements aren't with me. They're with God.
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Old 11-26-2012, 02:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Jaymax View Post
Such a shame the texts weren't actually originally written in English... or the 20th century. The word 'homosexuals" was used (incorrectly) for the first time in an English translation in the late 1940's (1 Cor 1:6-9). The same verse was used for centuries to condemn masturbation.

Abusive or idolatrous same-gender sex acts are condemned. Homosexuality isn't even mentioned at all.
That's not true. I know Hebrew and Greek scholars who will disagree, too. This is merely a straw man argument in the attempt to justify homosexuality as normal and God-ordained. They're not.

The original scriptures were written in Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic. Those languages are not dead and the scriptures in those languages are still commonly around. Homosexuality is indeed part of those languages in the scripture.

But, people who are desperate to justify homosexuality have no problem grabbing hold of falsehoods if it agrees with what they want to believe and accept. The Bible calls that tickling ears.
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Old 11-26-2012, 02:49 PM
 
2,271 posts, read 2,634,097 times
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Originally Posted by Jaymax View Post
People can't change their innate sexual orientation. Even Christian Evangelical researchers are finally realising this:

A new study by conservative Christian psychologists on people in mixed orientation marriages has found that while people can change their sexual behavior, sexual orientation does not change.


“Characteristics of Mixed Orientation Couples: An Empirical Study"

http://wthrockmorton.com/2011/07/15/new-study-sexual-behavior-changes-but-not-sexual-orientation/

"While it was not a study of efforts to change, one could reasonably assume that if a group had participants who had shifted orientation very much, then this would be the group. However, that is not what they found"

Conservative Christian psychologist Dr Throckmorton says: "I think evangelicals need to face what evangelical academics are finding in research"
There are two (false) assumptions in your post; that people are innately homosexual (Romans 1:24-27) and that these "Christian Psychologists" are actually real Christians. If anyone preaches anything that's contrary to the scriptures, they are not of God. They're not true, biblical Christians. (Galatians 1:6-10)

Many people call themselves Christians but aren't. (Matthew 7:21-23) I can wear an orange robe, shave my head, chant, and call myself a Hare Krishna but, unless I'm LIVING OUT what they teach and believe, I would be a fake and damaging who the Hare Krishna's really are. In the same way, not everyone who claims to be a Christian actually is one. In fact, I will go as far as say that most of them are not. (Matthew 7:3-14)

Even if every single man, woman and child on the face of the earth agreed in harmony and unity that homosexuality should be accepted, embraced and considered sinless, it STILL wouldn't change the fact that God calls it sin and will judge it.

Still all of that aside. It doesn't matter what psychologists or anyone else says. Only what God has said in His word.
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Old 11-26-2012, 02:56 PM
 
2,271 posts, read 2,634,097 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymax View Post
Even Alan Chambers, the president of Exodus International, one of the largest 'pray-away-the-gay' groups, finally said earlier this year that 99.9% of their members have not changed their sexual orientation. (By saying 99.9% he means...none)
I don't know anything about Exodus International. I do, however, know of former homosexuals who have complete victory of that sin. I can only reiterate Point #6 in my original post: "6. Just as any sin can be forgiven, God also promises the strength for victory over sin, including homosexuality, to all those who will believe in Jesus Christ for their salvation. (1 Corinthians 6:11, 2 Corinthians 5:17, and Philippians 4:13.)"

Quote:
Many evangelical Christian gay and lesbian people feel pressured by their religious beliefs to lie about their sexual orientation and pretend to have 'changed'.

Is it better to live your whole life lying to yourself and others or to be in a loving commited same-gender relationship (Marriage now in 9 states in the US and soon to be more)?
Yes, I supposed they would feel pressured to lie. Is that from God? No. That pressure comes from themselves, their sin and other people. It doesn't come from God (who promises forgiveness and victory over sin) or the scriptures. It sounds like these people are looking to others for acceptance and assurance instead of looking to God and what His word says. That's where they're going wrong. People are fallible. God isn't.
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Old 11-26-2012, 02:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jerseygal4u View Post
Or is it the action itself(having sex with a member of the same sex as yourself) that makes you gay?

I'm trying to find out from a Christian point of view. I treid to post on the Relationship forum but I didn't understand.
I remember reading on a Christian website that its the sex act itself that makes you a homosexual.
I'm confused.
Does that mean virgins can't be gay because they have not had any sex?
I see all these teens who say they are gay but they are virgins.
Does having thoughts of being an astronaut make one an astronaut?
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Old 11-26-2012, 04:32 PM
 
2,463 posts, read 2,770,399 times
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Originally Posted by Oleg Bach View Post
Nothing wrong with being deeply in love with another human being. Nothing wrong with loving the opposite sex or the same sex. It is questionable that this so-called love manifests it self in some sort of sexual form. I could never understand how a homosexual who finds woman beautiful does not consider the female in a sexual way? Why they find having sex with a woman is repulsive but sodomizing or having oral sex with the same sex is not....It just strikes me as odd.
Homosexual men do not find having sex with a woman "repulsive." There is just no sexual attraction. Yes, many gay guys have professions, such as hair stylists, make up artists and fashion designers, catering to the beautification of women. I think if anything, for some of these guys there is a bit of vicarious interest, but not necessarily.

I can't understand why a man would want to exercise, lift weights continuously, with intense dedication to achieving the physique he wants, often glancing in mirrors, --yet if he's straight, will not see the incredible sexual attraction to such a physique. Using words like "sodomizing" is a form of contempt, and equivalent to me, assuming all hetero men fantasizing about raping women. We see women being pressured and manipulated all the time from straight men for their affection and sex. It often seems like an imbalance. The men that make the most money, and carry the most charisma seem to be the primary ones hetero women are interested in; it often does not relate to a sexuality, or his attractiveness. In many ways heterosexuality in an imbalance. Straight men want sex more often than women, and if women have any interest, they want love first, and to know there is some kind of commitment being considered. But, usually it is always preferred by straight women that their men be successful financially.

I wondered as a kid why homosexuality existed...and what it really was.. What was clear to me back then was the simple fact that some people are so deeply in love with themselves that they only way they can express that love FOR THEM SELVES is to have sex WITH THEM SELVES. So they opt for the same sex which is probably as close as you can get to fulfilling that supposed self love- I really don't believe there is any real love involved in the homosexual act...It is all about yourself and not another person.[/quote]

No, gays are not attracted to themselves. Like many, you seem to complicate things more than they need to be. There are just some men who grow up and realize through no fault of their own that they are sexually attracted to guys. They are not women trapped inside mens bodies, they are not struggling with an Adonis complex causing them to feel compelled toward same sex attraction. And above all, it has nothing to do with nurture, it is just something that happens, most likely in utero with a minority of people. Yes, there are people who experiment sexually; there are guys that will try sex with a guy, but it doesn't mean he's gay, unless he's sexually attractive to men in general.
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Old 11-26-2012, 04:34 PM
 
2,463 posts, read 2,770,399 times
Reputation: 3627
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oleg Bach View Post
Nothing wrong with being deeply in love with another human being. Nothing wrong with loving the opposite sex or the same sex. It is questionable that this so-called love manifests it self in some sort of sexual form. I could never understand how a homosexual who finds woman beautiful does not consider the female in a sexual way? Why they find having sex with a woman is repulsive but sodomizing or having oral sex with the same sex is not....It just strikes me as odd.
Homosexual men do not find having sex with a woman "repulsive." There is just no sexual attraction. Yes, many gay guys have professions, such as hair stylists, make up artists and fashion designers, catering to the beautification of women. I think if anything, for some of these guys there is a bit of vicarious interest, but not necessarily.

I can't understand why a man would want to exercise, lift weights continuously, with intense dedication to achieving the physique he is determined to get, often glancing in mirrors, --yet if he's straight, will not see the incredible sexual attraction to such a physique. Using words like "sodomizing" is a form of contempt, and equivalent to me, assuming all hetero men fantasize about raping women. We see women being pressured and manipulated all the time from straight men for their affection and sex. It often seems like an imbalance. The men that make the most money, and carry the most charisma seem to be the primary ones hetero women are interested in; it often does not relate to a sexuality, or his attractiveness. In many ways heterosexuality is an imbalance. Straight men almost always want sex more often than women, and they must learn how to achieve that affection. If women have any interest, they want love first, and to know there is some kind of commitment being considered first. But, usually it is always preferred by straight women that their men be successful financially. Straight boys must learn to play the game, because usually it's straight women who make the rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oleg Bach View Post
I wondered as a kid why homosexuality existed...and what it really was.. What was clear to me back then was the simple fact that some people are so deeply in love with themselves that they only way they can express that love FOR THEM SELVES is to have sex WITH THEM SELVES. So they opt for the same sex which is probably as close as you can get to fulfilling that supposed self love- I really don't believe there is any real love involved in the homosexual act...It is all about yourself and not another person.
No, gays are not attracted to themselves. Like many, you seem to complicate things more than they need to be. There are just some men who grow up and realize through no fault of their own that they are sexually attracted to guys. They are not women trapped inside mens bodies, they are not struggling with an Adonis complex causing them to feel compelled toward same sex attraction. And above all, it has nothing to do with nurture, it is just something that happens, most likely in utero with a minority of people. Yes, there are people who experiment sexually; there are guys that will try sex with a guy, but it doesn't mean he's gay, unless he's sexually attractive to men in general.
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