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Originally Posted by plain and simple
I agree that God chastens and disciplines those He loves. Just as an earthly parent corrects their children, so does God with us. My question was more about God's judgments AFTER death. But, you address those below, so, moving on... 
It must not be inferred that should one "die in their sins" that they can never be saved later.
This is what I don't understand. Where does this belief come from? Where is the example of it in scripture? Where is the context of this in any of the scriptures? There is no example of anyone being saved after death. In fact, the example given is just the opposite. |
Hi plain and simple, hope you don't mind if I cut in on Eusebius. He is quite capable to answer as well.
But anyway, this belief does come from scripture. There are many scriptures that show God desires and wills all to be saved, and all will in fact be saved, because all will turn back to God, all will bow and confess to His glory, all will worship Him joyfully, all will be reconciled, all will be made righteous. Since it appears to us that many die unrepentant, in order for these other scriptures to be true, they must be converted after death.
Consider: what happens to babies? Do you think they are saved after death? There is one example. Scripture speaks of those who knew little receiving "few blows", but those who knew much receiving "many blows". Certainly babies know little - they will receive "few blows" (I don't think it is talking about literal physical blows here). But what about those who knew much? They receive many blows, not eternal blows.
Some of the scriptures that speaks to all being saved, you must have seen these before:
Psalm 22:27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
Isaiah 45:22 “Turn to me and be saved,
all you ends of the earth;
for I am God, and there is no other.
23 By myself I have sworn,
my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear.
Notice God Himself specifically says "Turn to me and be saved", and guess what, everyone does! We also see this in Phil 2:9-11 where everyone bows to God's glory and in Rev 5:13 every creature praising God.
That's not to say some are not ashamed while others are glorified, as we see in the next verse.
Isaiah 45:24 They will say of me, ‘In the Lord alone
are deliverance and strength.’”
All who have raged against him
will come to him and be put to shame.
And who among us has not done something they would be ashamed of when coming before the Lord? It is shame that leads to repentance and humility.
But regardless:
Luke 3:6 And all people will see God’s salvation.
1 Tim 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
In Romans 5:19 the "many" who are made sinners are the same "many" who are made righteous - namely, everyone except for Jesus Himself. We know this in the preceding verse because it says Jesus' act resulted in justification and life for all people.
God's ultimate plan
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Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross
Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
God subjected us to frustration, so that He could bring us out of that bondage and into the glory of the children of God. He did this for all creation - including all humans.
Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
That is an amazing statement.
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The rich man and Lazarus. Even when the rich man was being tormented, he never repented. He only asked that Lazarus would go and tell his brothers so that they can escape the same fate he received. One of many things this shows us is that, even after death, no one would repent if they didn't in life.
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Go back and reread Luke 16. Tell me where it says what happens to the rich man. It only speaks of that moment. Does it say he is always in torment? Does it say he can never repent? Read it with an open mind without the preconceived ideas of an eternal hell.
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What do you call what others call "hell"? Not every reference to hell in the scriptures refers to Gehenna. Where does it say that God will let them out and save them? Where is the example of this in scripture?
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"hell" is a terribly mistranslated word. It comes from sheol/hades which means "grave" or "unseen" - the place where the dead go - no one has seen it. It also comes from the word gehenna which is referring to a burning valley used for judgment. But the valley is no longer burning today. You can visit it yourself just outside of Jerusalem.
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With this policy, why should anyone who's living in sin now care if it doesn't matter in the end and they're going to be saved anyway?
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Is the only reason you don't sin right now because you are afraid of hell?
There are real consequences for sin. I'm not talking about a fabled eternal torture pit. We see examples everyday of the results of sin - pain, suffering, destruction and death. You will reap what you sow, there is no doubt about that.
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Where does the scripture show that salvation will be, basically, forced onto people? Where does it say that everyone will eventually accept salvation after they die?
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I gave a bunch of verses above that show everyone will turn back to God and bow and confess and praise Him and worship Him. But you have the wrong idea about "forcing" people to be saved. Tell me, if a swimmer is unconscious at the bottom of the pool, does a life guard "force" salvation on him by pulling him to the surface?
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What about the scriptures that refer to ETERNAL torment and hell fire?
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There are no scriptures that says "hell" is "eternal". Search it yourself. It is usually the "eternal" torment in the lake of fire that is thought to be referring to "hell". But the lake of fire is not "hell". How can you throw hell into hell? Anyway, this is a bigger topic than one post. Suffice it to say there is much debate that "eternal" is not the right translation.
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Whether it's called Universalism, the Gospel of Inclusion or Ultimate Reconciliation, it's just not biblical.
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Actually it is. Col 1:20 says that all things will be reconciled. Sounds like universal reconciliation, wouldn't you say?
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John 14:6 says that the only path to salvation is through Jesus.
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Yes, this is not disputed. Jesus will save all - He is the savior of the world who came to save all people, after all. Most of Christianity thinks He did not complete the task.
I see now Eusebius has addressed your post, so I will stop for the moment as this is getting long.
But regarding your points about faith, do you realize that it is God who has given us our faith? Also, what of Thomas, and the other disciples for that matter? Thomas did not believe until He saw the holes... where was His faith? Is he saved? Or does he get the best circumstance to believe - physical evidence that none of us will ever see?
Just some things to think on...
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