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The Church and Israel are two separate peoples as has been shown in posts #2 and #4. A believing Jew (or Hebrew) who died before the Church Age began on the Day of Pentecost belongs to Israel. Not to the Church. A Jew who believes in Christ during the Tribulation will belong to Israel. Not to the Church.
The Church is an intercalation; an insertion which interrupts the Dispensation of Israel. The dispensation of Israel was interrupted so that the Church, in which a believer is neither Jew (Israel) or Gentile, but is Church which is a new creation, could be formed. After the Church is taken off the earth the remainder of the dispensation of Israel will run its course during the seven year Tribulation.
The fact that during the Church Age both Jew and Gentile are in one body (in Christ) does not negate the fact that Jews both before and after the Church Age belong to Israel and not to the Church. Israel and the Church are two separate peoples under two different divine programs.
Look up the word ekklasia which is translated church in all encounters, then loo up the word church in the Koine greek...
The Church and Israel are two separate peoples as has been shown in posts #2 and #4. A believing Jew (or Hebrew) who died before the Church Age began on the Day of Pentecost belongs to Israel. Not to the Church. A Jew who believes in Christ during the Tribulation will belong to Israel. Not to the Church.
The Church is an intercalation; an insertion which interrupts the Dispensation of Israel. The dispensation of Israel was interrupted so that the Church, in which a believer is neither Jew (Israel) or Gentile, but is Church which is a new creation, could be formed. After the Church is taken off the earth the remainder of the dispensation of Israel will run its course during the seven year Tribulation.
The fact that during the Church Age both Jew and Gentile are in one body (in Christ) does not negate the fact that Jews both before and after the Church Age belong to Israel and not to the Church. Israel and the Church are two separate peoples under two different divine programs.
To make a statement that someone is wrong without even attempting to show why they are wrong is simply an empty comment. The Church is not Israel and I have already shown why.
To make a statement that someone is wrong without even attempting to show why they are wrong is simply an empty comment. The Church is not Israel and I have already shown why.
Everywhere church is translated from ekklesia, it means assembly, gathering, meeting, congregation..You are missing the meaning of the Olive tree parable also...I am sorry, you are just wrong in many of your assertions...The 'Church' is Israel, for Gentiles are grafted into the faith of Israel, Israel is not grafted into the faith of the Gentiles...Yeshua did not come to start a new religion, he came to correct the existing Faith of Israel...
"The 'Church' is Israel, for Gentiles are grafted into the faith of Israel, Israel is not grafted into the faith of the Gentiles....Yeshua did not come to start a new religion, he came to correct the existing Faith of Israel."
Except for Paul's use of
ekklesia in Ephesians 5: 23-27, and Colossians 1: 24, where Paul appears to
equate the ekklesia with the Body of Christ, almost all other uses of
ekklesia in the New Testament use it to mean an assembly or
congregation at a particular location.
At the time Paul wrote Ephesians and Colossians the vast majority of
those in the various congregations did belong to the Body of Christ;
they were of the elect, saved, and were the Israel of God (Galatians
6: 16), or Israel born again in Christ (John 3: 1-7).
To Paul at that time the Christian ekklesia, the Israel of God, all Israel shall be saved (Romans 11: 26, and the elect all referred to the same Body of Israel reborn in Christ, all those who were saved. So, the little c church, not the Catholic Capital C Church, was not a Body of Christ different from the elect, or all those who are saved,
The distinction between the Capital C Church, as a different Body of Christ, and all physical Israel, or the Jews, was made by John Darby, Edward Irving, and C.I. Scofield in the 19th and early 20th centuries. It is very important to notice that these theologians did not make the remnant of physical Israel that accepted Christ (Romans 11: 5) a different Body from all physical Israel, the majority of whom rejected Christ. This is a big reason some are now calling this theology Christian Zionism.
I would not use Yeshua instead of Jesus Christ, unless you are a follower of Hebrew Roots, Sacred Name Theology or Messianic Judaism - because that use is often an indicator of being in one or more of those theologies.
Everywhere church is translated from ekklesia, it means assembly, gathering, meeting, congregation..You are missing the meaning of the Olive tree parable also...I am sorry, you are just wrong in many of your assertions...The 'Church' is Israel, for Gentiles are grafted into the faith of Israel, Israel is not grafted into the faith of the Gentiles...Yeshua did not come to start a new religion, he came to correct the existing Faith of Israel...
You have not addressed anything that I have already posted. The New Testament Church which began on the Day of Pentecost 50 days after Jesus Christ was crucified is not Israel and has not replaced Israel. Nor have the promises made by God to Israel been transferred to the Church.
The first mention of the Church was made by Jesus in Matthew 16:18 I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
Jesus said, 'I will build' which is future indicative active. The dispensation of the Church was still future at that point. The Church Age is distinguished from Israel by among other things, the universal indwelling of the Holy Spirit among believers. Israel did not have the universal indwelling of God the Holy Spirit.
As has already been stated (and ignored), the Church is neither Jew nor Gentile, but a new creation which has never before existed. After the Church has been raptured a believing Jew will be Israel, not a part of the Church.
Israel has been temporary set aside (also already mentioned and backed up with Scripture) until the time of the Gentiles has come in.
The Church is the body of Christ, of which Christ is the head.
Col. 1:18 He (Jesus Christ) is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
Paul states that He was made a minister of this Church according to the stewardship (dispensation) from God.
Col. 1:25 Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God,
Paul further states that the Church was a mystery hidden in ages past.
Col 1:26 that is, the mystery (the dispensation of the Church) which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints,
The Church is neither Jew nor Gentile. Because of the baptism of the Holy Spirit which did not occur prior to the Day of Pentecost, believing Jews and believing Gentiles are placed into one body which is neither Jew (Israel) or Gentile but CHURCH which is a new creation which never before existed.
In going to the cross, Jesus made it possible for both Jews and Gentiles to be brought together into a single group; into one new man which is neither Jew or Gentile, but Church.
Eph. 2:15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
Once the Church is taken off the earth, a Jew who comes to believe in Christ will be Israel, not Church. The Church will be in heaven at that point. A Jew who believed in Christ and died prior to the Day of Pentecost is Israel, not Church. The Church Age did not come into existence until the Day of Pentecost.
In the illustration of the olive tree in Romans 11:16-36, Israel is not the entire Olive tree. It is the natural branches, of which some were broken off so that the wild shoots could be grafted in. This is Israel being temporarily set aside because of disobedience until the times of the Gentiles has come in. The Olive tree represents God's working with both Israel and the Church. It in no way implies that the Church is Israel.
See posts #2, 4, 10.
All right. I have explained well enough that the Church is not Israel. I am not going to spend any more time on this thread explaining the issue to those who have no intention of making any effort to understand the matter. Replacement theology is a heresy. Those who want to can access the links below for more information. Those of you who aren't interested ...
If your authority is the theology of John Darby, Edward Irving, C.I. Scofield, Lewis S. Chafer, Charles C. Ryrie, J. Dwight Pentecost, John Hagee, Hal Lindsey and others, usually called dispensationalism by academic theologians, or Christian Zionism by some others, then Israel and the church must be two different groups.
But if your authority is Paul, then the Christian ekklesia, which was the church seen to be the same as the Body of Christ in Ephesians 5: 23-27 and Colossians 1: 24, the Israel of God (Galatians 6: 16), all Israel shall be saved (Romans 11: 26), and the elect (Romans 8: 33, Colossians 3: 12, Titus 1: 1, etc) are all of one group, one fold, as Christ said in John 10: 16, all who are saved. Paul clearly says in Romans 11: 17, 19, 20 and 21, that those of physical Israel who were in unbelief were broken off. So all physical Israel as the theology so strongly implies when it makes no distinction between those in belief and those in unbelief, cannot be a group of God's people. And neither the little c church, nor the Catholic Capital C Church, were ever a Body of Christ different from the elect, or all those who are saved,
Charles C. Ryrie (born 1925) says the "...basic promise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God expressed in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction
throughout eternity." Charles C. Ryrie, Dispensationalism Today, 1966, pp.44-45
The classical dispensationalists - John Darby, C.I. Scofield, Lewis S. Chafer and Charles C. Ryrie - insist that "Israel" in the Old Testament always means physical Israel, the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. With that interpretation of Israel, they then go on to say that the Christian Church is not found in Old Testament prophecy.
In part their view that "Israel" must always refer to Old Testament physical Israel, both the faithful and the unfaithful Children of Israel, comes out of their belief that Scripture should always be interpreted literally.
In his book, Dispensationalism (1966), Charles Ryrie says "The essence of Dispensationalism, then, is the distinction between Israel and the church."
(page 3, "Dispensationalism")
"The nature of the church is a crucial point of difference between classic, or normative, dispensationalism and other doctrinal systems. Indeed, ecclesiology, or the doctrine of the church, is the touchstone
of dispensationalism(and also of pretribulationalism)."
(page 123, Charles Ryrie Dispensationalism (Chicago: Moody Press, [1966], 1995)
J. Dwight Pentecost is another dispensationalist theologian who in his book Things To Come ( 1965) says "The church
and Israel are two distinct groups with whom God has a divine plan.
The church is a mystery, unrevealed in the Old Testament. This mystery
program must be completed before God can resume His program with
Israel and bring it to completion. These considerations all arise from
a literal method of interpretation."
(page 193, J. Dwight Pentecost, Things To Come, Zondervan, 1965).
If your authority is the theology of John Darby, Edward Irving, C.I. Scofield, Lewis S. Chafer, Charles C. Ryrie, J. Dwight Pentecost, John Hagee, Hal Lindsey and others, usually called dispensationalism by academic theologians, or Christian Zionism by some others, then Israel and the church must be two different groups.
But if your authority is Paul, then the Christian ekklesia, which was the church seen to be the same as the Body of Christ in Ephesians 5: 23-27 and Colossians 1: 24, the Israel of God (Galatians 6: 16), all Israel shall be saved (Romans 11: 26), and the elect (Romans 8: 33, Colossians 3: 12, Titus 1: 1, etc) are all of one group, one fold, as Christ said in John 10: 16, all who are saved. Paul clearly says in Romans 11: 17, 19, 20 and 21, that those of physical Israel who were in unbelief were broken off. So all physical Israel as the theology so strongly implies when it makes no distinction between those in belief and those in unbelief, cannot be a group of God's people. And neither the little c church, nor the Catholic Capital C Church, were ever a Body of Christ different from the elect, or all those who are saved,
Charles C. Ryrie (born 1925) says the "...basic promise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God expressed in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction
throughout eternity." Charles C. Ryrie, Dispensationalism Today, 1966, pp.44-45
The classical dispensationalists - John Darby, C.I. Scofield, Lewis S. Chafer and Charles C. Ryrie - insist that "Israel" in the Old Testament always means physical Israel, the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. With that interpretation of Israel, they then go on to say that the Christian Church is not found in Old Testament prophecy.
In part their view that "Israel" must always refer to Old Testament physical Israel, both the faithful and the unfaithful Children of Israel, comes out of their belief that Scripture should always be interpreted literally.
In his book, Dispensationalism (1966), Charles Ryrie says "The essence of Dispensationalism, then, is the distinction between Israel and the church."
(page 3, "Dispensationalism")
"The nature of the church is a crucial point of difference between classic, or normative, dispensationalism and other doctrinal systems. Indeed, ecclesiology, or the doctrine of the church, is the touchstone
of dispensationalism(and also of pretribulationalism)."
(page 123, Charles Ryrie Dispensationalism (Chicago: Moody Press, [1966], 1995)
J. Dwight Pentecost is another dispensationalist theologian who in his book Things To Come ( 1965) says "The church
and Israel are two distinct groups with whom God has a divine plan.
The church is a mystery, unrevealed in the Old Testament. This mystery
program must be completed before God can resume His program with
Israel and bring it to completion. These considerations all arise from
a literal method of interpretation."
(page 193, J. Dwight Pentecost, Things To Come, Zondervan, 1965).
OP, you don't know what you are talking about and apparently have not read anything that I posted. Be aware that the replacement theology you are promoting is rooted in anti-Semitism.
This statement made by the OP in post #6 suggests an anti-Semitic attitude. >> 'Why would those who claim to be Christians place so much emphasis upon the support of a people who have rejected Christ for 2,000 years, though a small remnant did accept him?'
Readers will note that in post #2, I posted and will again post below a quote from Lewis Sperry Chafer in his Sytematic Theology which directly refutes the OP's claim that Sperry believed that physical Israel was true Israel.
From post #2.
*** Now here is just a little of what Lewis Sperry Chafer actually said, which is contrary to your claim that he considered all of physical Israel to be Israel.
It is written, ''So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham'' (Gal. 3:9). A vital distinction is drawn by the Apostle between Israel after the flesh and that portion of Israel within Israel who are saved. Those who are saved are styled ''the Israel of God'' (Gal. 6:16), and the statement that ''they are not all Israel, which are of Israel'' (Rom. 9:6) is a reference to the same distinction. The use of these passages to prove Israel and the Church to be the same is deplored in the light of the truth which these Scriptures declare. [Systematic Theology, Lewis Sperry Chafer, vol. 4, p. 48]
As Sperry said (and you will note that he referred to Galatians which was written by Paul), true Israel consisted of believing Jews. Not merely those Jews who were physically descended from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. OP, you need to get your facts straight.
And no, the Christian Church is not found in the Old Testament. Paul made that clear as I showed in post #17.
My posts on this thread are #2, 4, 10, and 17. As I said earlier, I am not going to keep explaining the issue. It has been made clear enough, and the OP has not even dared to actually address anything that I have posted. The willful ignorance that many people display gets very tiresome.
If you don't understand dispensational theology which is clearly taught in the Bible, there is much you will never understand about the Bible.
Did you know the word "REbirth" is not Scriptural?
Where did the word rebirth come from?
And who has interjected it into some prophetic-doctrinal time table?
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