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Old 11-29-2012, 10:22 AM
 
9 posts, read 9,120 times
Reputation: 13

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The "church" as a Body of Christ Different From Israel Reborn In Christ

There were three great English translations from the Greek Textus Receptus of Erasmus, the first being that of William Tyndale (1525), the second the Geneva Bible (1599), and the third the King James Version (1611).

The Geneva Bible and the King James Version both translate the important Greek word ekklesia, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance Number 1577, as church. Strongs says ekklesia means a calling out, a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation, Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members...assembly, church."

What is the origin of our English word "church" ? See

http://www.aggressivechristianity.ne...s/ecclesia.htm

""Church" comes from the Old English and German word pronounced "kirche." In Scotland, it was "kirk."

The following entries are from the Oxford Universal English Dictionary:

Church [Old English cirice, circe; Middle English chereche, chiriche, chirche; whence churche, cherche, etc.: -Greek Kuriakon...]

Kirk The Northern English and Scottish form of CHURCH, in all its senses."

So, there was a Greek word Kuriakon which had a different meaning than the Greek word ekklesia, which is used so many times in the New Testament. A Kuriakon involves a Lord, and this was a human Lord of some kind or perhaps a pagan god. An ekklesia in Greek is a meeting, assembly or congregation.

William Tyndale in his English translation of the Textus Receptus of 1525 (and later) consistently translated ekklesia as congregation, not as Kuriakon or "church" as did the Geneva Bible and the King James Version which came later, in 1599 and 1611.

For example, in the Geneva Bible and King James Version the word "church" appears many times in the Book of Acts. Look, or example, at Acts 8: 1, in the Geneva Bible: "1 And Saul consented to his death. And at that time, there was a great persecution against the Church which was at Jerusalem, and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judea and of Samaria, except the Apostles. "

The word "church" which should not have a capital C is from ekklesia in Acts 8: 1. In fact, The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament, by George Ricker Berry, 1958. has "assembly" for ekklesia and not "church." I am not sure the original Geneva Bible capitalized church; a modern editor or publisher might have added the capital C. Even the NIV does not capitalize church in Acts 8: 1.

Now look at the King James Version for Acts 8: 1: "And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles."

Note that the King James Version does not capitalize "church." Ekklesia or "church" in the King James is always with a little c.

Now lets see how William Tyndale translated ekklesia in Acts 8: 1, which is just one verse of a great many in the New Testament which contain ekklesia.

"Saul had pleasure in his deeth. And at yt tyme there was a great persecucion agaynst the congregacion which was at Ierusalem."

"Translating" Tyndale's old English, Acts 8: 1 says "Saul had pleasure in his death. And at the time there was a great persecution against the congregation which was at Jerusalem."

Tyndale is consistent in translating ekklesia as congregation, not as church.

Why is this important? Its partly because the English word "church" has an original meaning different from the Greek ekklesia, as shown above. And even more important, the English word "church" beame a capital C "Church" under the Roman Catholic Church.

A meeting, assembly or congregation is not a Body of Christ. The identity of a group of God's people who are born again in Christ and are the elect is not described by the concept of a meeting, assembly or congregation. We would have to ask "An assembly of what?"

And identity and one's position in his doctrines is what Christ is talking about in Luke 13: 24-27,
"Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26. Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity."

"Whence" means where.

But the Catholic Church made the ekklesia, the meeting, into their capital C "Church," which, to them, is a Body of Christ, and is different from physical Israel, and any other Israel, such as the Israel (which is) of God of Galatians 6: 16. Catholic theology says their "Church" replaced Israel.

But the theology of John Darby, Edward Irving, C.I. Scofield, Lewis S. Chafer and many others down to John Hagee came along in the 19th century and proclaimed that God now has two distinctly different peoples, the Jews, or all physical Israel, and the capital C Church. In proclaiming that God now has a second group of people called the "Church," Darby et al are following the Catholic Church in making the "Church" into a Body of Christ different from any form of Israel.

Christ said "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matthew 15: 24

"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." John 10: 16

"So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." Romans 12: 5

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5. One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." Ephesians 4: 4-6

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3: 28

Darby, Irving, Scofield, Chafer et al are wrong. Christ does not have two groups of people that are now his. He has one saved people. You can call that one group the Body of Christ, the elect, the saints, Israel born again in Christ, the Israel (which is) of God, or all Israel, meaning Israel as the spiritual house of I Peter 2: 5-9.

There is another interesting and important difference between the way Tyndale translates a Greek word and the way the Geneva Bible and the King James Version translate the word.
.
Romans 13: 1-4 King James Version:

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4. For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Romans 13: 1-4: Geneva Bible

"1 Let) every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no
power but of God; and the powers that be, are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God; and
they that resist, shall receive to themselves condemnation.
3 For Magistrates are not to be feared for good works, but for evil. Wilt
thou then be without fear of the power? Do well, so shalt thou have praise of the
same.
4 For he is the minister of God for thy wealth, but if thou do evil, fear; for he
beareth not the sword for nought; for he is the minister of God to take
vengeance on him that doeth evil."

Romans 13: 1-4: Tyndale Bible

"1 Let every soule submit him selfe vnto the auctorite of ye hyer powers. For there is no power but of God.
2 The powers that be are ordeyned of God. Whosoever therfore resysteth power resisteth the ordinaunce of God. And they that resist shall receave to the selfe damnacio.
3 For rulars are not to be feared for good workes but for evyll Wilt thou be with out feare of the power? Do well then: and so shalt thou be praysed of the same.
4 For he is the minister of God for thy welth. But and yf thou do evyll then feare: for he beareth not a swearde for nought: "

For those who don't like the English of William Tyndale's time (14921536) , It says "Let every soul submit himself unto the authority of the higher powers. For there is no power but of God. The powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth power resisteth the ordinance of God. And they that resist shall receive to the self damnation. For rulers are not to be feared for good works but for evil, wilt thou be without fear of the power? Do well then: and so shalt thou be praised of the same. For he is a minister of God for they wealth. But if thou do evil then fear: for he beareth not the sword for nought."

A key word is the Greek word εξουσιαις, exousia, in verse one. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance says Number 1849 means authority,jurisdiction,liberty, power, right, strength...from 1832 in the sense of ability..."

The Tyndale Bible translates exousia as authority, but the Geneva Bible and the King James Version translate the word as power. There is an important difference between authority and power. Authority can mean the absolute authority of God, while power can mean the power of a human dictator. And the Tyndale Bible, in translating exousia as authority rather than power can determine for the reader whether Paul is talking about the authority of God as vested in the leaders of his flock, or about men as powers of human government.

The Christian churches have thought Paul is talking about obeying human government, when he is talking about obeying God's ministers. So, many present day preachers tell their congregations to obey the government which is now evil in many ways. In part, through his ministers God chastens those who lack righteousness and that can bring on the peaceful fruit of righteousness (Hebrews 12: 11).
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Old 11-29-2012, 02:55 PM
 
17,826 posts, read 13,461,529 times
Reputation: 5639
Quote:
Originally Posted by northwye View Post
The "church" as a Body of Christ Different From Israel Reborn In Christ

There were three great English translations from the Greek Textus Receptus of Erasmus, the first being that of William Tyndale (1525), the second the Geneva Bible (1599), and the third the King James Version (1611).

The Geneva Bible and the King James Version both translate the important Greek word ekklesia, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance Number 1577, as church. Strongs says ekklesia means a calling out, a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation, Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members...assembly, church."

What is the origin of our English word "church" ? See

http://www.aggressivechristianity.ne...s/ecclesia.htm

""Church" comes from the Old English and German word pronounced "kirche." In Scotland, it was "kirk."

The following entries are from the Oxford Universal English Dictionary:

Church [Old English cirice, circe; Middle English chereche, chiriche, chirche; whence churche, cherche, etc.: -Greek Kuriakon...]

Kirk The Northern English and Scottish form of CHURCH, in all its senses."

So, there was a Greek word Kuriakon which had a different meaning than the Greek word ekklesia, which is used so many times in the New Testament. A Kuriakon involves a Lord, and this was a human Lord of some kind or perhaps a pagan god. An ekklesia in Greek is a meeting, assembly or congregation.

William Tyndale in his English translation of the Textus Receptus of 1525 (and later) consistently translated ekklesia as congregation, not as Kuriakon or "church" as did the Geneva Bible and the King James Version which came later, in 1599 and 1611.

For example, in the Geneva Bible and King James Version the word "church" appears many times in the Book of Acts. Look, or example, at Acts 8: 1, in the Geneva Bible: "1 And Saul consented to his death. And at that time, there was a great persecution against the Church which was at Jerusalem, and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judea and of Samaria, except the Apostles. "

The word "church" which should not have a capital C is from ekklesia in Acts 8: 1. In fact, The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament, by George Ricker Berry, 1958. has "assembly" for ekklesia and not "church." I am not sure the original Geneva Bible capitalized church; a modern editor or publisher might have added the capital C. Even the NIV does not capitalize church in Acts 8: 1.

Now look at the King James Version for Acts 8: 1: "And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles."

Note that the King James Version does not capitalize "church." Ekklesia or "church" in the King James is always with a little c.

Now lets see how William Tyndale translated ekklesia in Acts 8: 1, which is just one verse of a great many in the New Testament which contain ekklesia.

"Saul had pleasure in his deeth. And at yt tyme there was a great persecucion agaynst the congregacion which was at Ierusalem."

"Translating" Tyndale's old English, Acts 8: 1 says "Saul had pleasure in his death. And at the time there was a great persecution against the congregation which was at Jerusalem."

Tyndale is consistent in translating ekklesia as congregation, not as church.

Why is this important? Its partly because the English word "church" has an original meaning different from the Greek ekklesia, as shown above. And even more important, the English word "church" beame a capital C "Church" under the Roman Catholic Church.

A meeting, assembly or congregation is not a Body of Christ. The identity of a group of God's people who are born again in Christ and are the elect is not described by the concept of a meeting, assembly or congregation. We would have to ask "An assembly of what?"

And identity and one's position in his doctrines is what Christ is talking about in Luke 13: 24-27,
"Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26. Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity."

"Whence" means where.

But the Catholic Church made the ekklesia, the meeting, into their capital C "Church," which, to them, is a Body of Christ, and is different from physical Israel, and any other Israel, such as the Israel (which is) of God of Galatians 6: 16. Catholic theology says their "Church" replaced Israel.

But the theology of John Darby, Edward Irving, C.I. Scofield, Lewis S. Chafer and many others down to John Hagee came along in the 19th century and proclaimed that God now has two distinctly different peoples, the Jews, or all physical Israel, and the capital C Church. In proclaiming that God now has a second group of people called the "Church," Darby et al are following the Catholic Church in making the "Church" into a Body of Christ different from any form of Israel.

Christ said "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matthew 15: 24

"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." John 10: 16

"So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." Romans 12: 5

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5. One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." Ephesians 4: 4-6

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3: 28

Darby, Irving, Scofield, Chafer et al are wrong. Christ does not have two groups of people that are now his. He has one saved people. You can call that one group the Body of Christ, the elect, the saints, Israel born again in Christ, the Israel (which is) of God, or all Israel, meaning Israel as the spiritual house of I Peter 2: 5-9.

There is another interesting and important difference between the way Tyndale translates a Greek word and the way the Geneva Bible and the King James Version translate the word.
.
Romans 13: 1-4 King James Version:

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4. For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Romans 13: 1-4: Geneva Bible

"1 Let) every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no
power but of God; and the powers that be, are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God; and
they that resist, shall receive to themselves condemnation.
3 For Magistrates are not to be feared for good works, but for evil. Wilt
thou then be without fear of the power? Do well, so shalt thou have praise of the
same.
4 For he is the minister of God for thy wealth, but if thou do evil, fear; for he
beareth not the sword for nought; for he is the minister of God to take
vengeance on him that doeth evil."

Romans 13: 1-4: Tyndale Bible

"1 Let every soule submit him selfe vnto the auctorite of ye hyer powers. For there is no power but of God.
2 The powers that be are ordeyned of God. Whosoever therfore resysteth power resisteth the ordinaunce of God. And they that resist shall receave to the selfe damnacio.
3 For rulars are not to be feared for good workes but for evyll Wilt thou be with out feare of the power? Do well then: and so shalt thou be praysed of the same.
4 For he is the minister of God for thy welth. But and yf thou do evyll then feare: for he beareth not a swearde for nought: "

For those who don't like the English of William Tyndale's time (14921536) , It says "Let every soul submit himself unto the authority of the higher powers. For there is no power but of God. The powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth power resisteth the ordinance of God. And they that resist shall receive to the self damnation. For rulers are not to be feared for good works but for evil, wilt thou be without fear of the power? Do well then: and so shalt thou be praised of the same. For he is a minister of God for they wealth. But if thou do evil then fear: for he beareth not the sword for nought."

A key word is the Greek word εξουσιαις, exousia, in verse one. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance says Number 1849 means authority,jurisdiction,liberty, power, right, strength...from 1832 in the sense of ability..."

The Tyndale Bible translates exousia as authority, but the Geneva Bible and the King James Version translate the word as power. There is an important difference between authority and power. Authority can mean the absolute authority of God, while power can mean the power of a human dictator. And the Tyndale Bible, in translating exousia as authority rather than power can determine for the reader whether Paul is talking about the authority of God as vested in the leaders of his flock, or about men as powers of human government.

The Christian churches have thought Paul is talking about obeying human government, when he is talking about obeying God's ministers. So, many present day preachers tell their congregations to obey the government which is now evil in many ways. In part, through his ministers God chastens those who lack righteousness and that can bring on the peaceful fruit of righteousness (Hebrews 12: 11).
The Church and Israel are two different and distinct groups of people as the Bible clearly reveals. Israel was temporarily set aside because of their rejection of Christ as the Messiah. Matt. 23:37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38] "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39] "For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!'" Rom. 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery-- so that you will not be wise in your own estimation-- that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26] and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."

The setting aside of Israel is only temporary. As a result of the judgments ot the Tribulation, the Jews will recognize that Jesus Christ is the Messiah that they had rejected. And the Jews will be fully restored to the land in belief. Zech 12:8 "In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the one who is feeble among them in that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the LORD before them. 9] "And in that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10] "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

The Promises made to Israel in the Abrahamic, Palestinian and Davidic covenants, and the New covenant to Israel are to be fulfill during the Millennial reign of Christ after His return.

In the meantime, God is calling out the Church which is a new creation 1 Cor. 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Before the Day of Pentecost, no believer was ever entered into union (in Christ) with Christ. Since the day of Pentecost everyone who believes on Christ is entered by means of the baptism of the Holy Spirit into Christ and made a new creation called Church - a new spiritual species in which there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile, slave or free, male and female. Gal. 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


*** Now here is just a little of what Lewis Sperry Chafer actually said, which is contrary to your claim that he considered all of physical Israel to be Israel.

It is written, ''So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham'' (Gal. 3:9). A vital distinction is drawn by the Apostle between Israel after the flesh and that portion of Israel within Israel who are saved. Those who are saved are styled ''the Israel of God'' (Gal. 6:16), and the statement that ''they are not all Israel, which are of Israel'' (Rom. 9:6) is a reference to the same distinction. The use of these passages to prove Israel and the Church to be the same is deplored in the light of the truth which these Scriptures declare. [Systematic Theology, Lewis Sperry Chafer, vol. 4, p. 48]


The term 'the Israel of God' refers to the saved remnant of Jews within the Church. It does not refer to the Church itself. It does not refer to Gentile believers within the Church. Paul states in Rom. 9:6 there there are two groups of Jews. Rom. 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; The true Israel of God are those Jews who have believed in the Messiah. The name Israel is never used for the Church which began on the Day of Pentecost. The phrase 'the Israel of God' simply refers to saved Jews who in this dispensation are Church rather than Israel.

God's program for Israel is on hold until the Church is caught up into heaven (the rapture). At some point after the Church has been raptured, Daniel's 70th week (Dan.9:27) which is the 7 year Tribulation will begin. The Tribulation is the last 7 years remaining to the dispensation of Israel, but not to Israel's future which will blossom in the Millennial kingdom.

That the Church will be taken off the earth before the Tribulation begins is shown in Revelation 1:19 which gives a general outline of the events spoken of in Revelation.

Rev. 1:19 "Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.


'The things which you have seen' refers to the vision that John saw in Rev. chapter one - the lampstands, the one like a son of man holding the seven stars.

'The things which are' refer to the seven churches in chapters 2 and 3 which are representative of churches thoughout this present dispensation of the Church.

'And the things which must take place after these things' refer to events which will take place after the dispensation of the Church has ended and the Church is caught up into heaven. 'The things which must take place after these things' begin with chapter 4. 'These things' refer to 'the things which are' in the previous phrase. The fact that the things which must take place must take place after these things means that they can not take place during these things. 'These things' must be completed before 'the things which must take place after these things' can begin to take place.

Now look at Rev. 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things."

Notice that John says 'After these things'. These things refer to what John has already seen. That includes the events from chapter 1 through chapter 3. John was shown this first part of the vision from his perspective on Patmos Island. But now, for the rest of the vision, John is caught up in the spirit into heaven. This is a picture of the rapture of the Church. He is given the rest of the vision from the perspective of heaven. The scene shifts back and forth between heaven and earth, but John is seeing it from the perspective of heaven. The events of the Tribulation actually begin in chapter 6 with the breaking of the first seal. So John is caught up into heaven and then shown the things which must take place after these things - after the events of the Chruch Age. John is shown the Tribulation which is God's judgement on Israel and the unbelieving Gentile nations, and then he is shown the events which will take place after the Tribulation.

If you understand what was said above, then you know that the rapture of the Church will take place before the Tribulation begins. This means that God's program for the Church on earth ends, and then His program for Israel resumes.

God has separate programs for the Church and Israel. They are two separate people.
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:49 PM
 
9 posts, read 9,120 times
Reputation: 13
The authority for a separation between the two forms of Israel which Paul defines in Romans 9: 6-8, Galatians 4: 25-26 and also Romans 2: 28-29 is not in New Testament scripture, but in the man made theology of John Darby, Edward Irving, C.I. Scofield Lewis S. Chafer and others.

There is another text by Paul on the issue of Israel born again in Christ and the church. This is Ephesians 2: 11-21,

"Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12. That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17. And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:"

In order for the followers of Darby, Scofield, et al to claim that Ephesians 2:11-21 says God has two separate peoples, All Physical Israel and the "church," there would have to be a New Testament text somewhere saying in an explicit way that God, after the Cross, after the Day of Pentecost, and after the revelation given to Paul (Acts 26: 16-18) has two different peoples, contrary to the following scriptures and more:


"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." John 10: 16

"So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." Romans 12: 5

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5. One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." Ephesians 4: 4-6

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3: 28

You cannot ignore scripture or spin it to fit a theology which says the opposite and still have the Gospel of Christ.
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Old 11-29-2012, 06:29 PM
 
17,826 posts, read 13,461,529 times
Reputation: 5639
Quote:
Originally Posted by northwye View Post
The authority for a separation between the two forms of Israel which Paul defines in Romans 9: 6-8, Galatians 4: 25-26 and also Romans 2: 28-29 is not in New Testament scripture, but in the man made theology of John Darby, Edward Irving, C.I. Scofield Lewis S. Chafer and others.

There is another text by Paul on the issue of Israel born again in Christ and the church. This is Ephesians 2: 11-21,

"Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12. That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17. And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:"

In order for the followers of Darby, Scofield, et al to claim that Ephesians 2:11-21 says God has two separate peoples, All Physical Israel and the "church," there would have to be a New Testament text somewhere saying in an explicit way that God, after the Cross, after the Day of Pentecost, and after the revelation given to Paul (Acts 26: 16-18) has two different peoples, contrary to the following scriptures and more:


"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." John 10: 16

"So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." Romans 12: 5

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5. One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." Ephesians 4: 4-6

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3: 28

You cannot ignore scripture or spin it to fit a theology which says the opposite and still have the Gospel of Christ.

I went into some detail in post #2 which shows that God has a different program for Israel than He does for the Church. You addressed none of it.

All you are doing is promoting replacement theology which unfortunately is rampant in the Church today. God made certain promises to Israel which He will keep with Israel. Not with the Church. The promises made to Israel have not been transferred to the Church.

Eph. 2:11-21 does not imply that the Church is spiritual Israel. It simply means that where in the past, the Jews and Gentiles were hostile peoples to each other, both peoples are now reconciled to each other in Christ, as well as being reconciled to God. Both Jew and Gentiles are brought together in one body which is neither Jew (Israel) or Gentile, but CHURCH.

The distinction which existed in the past between Jews and Gentiles does not exist in the Church Age. The reason why is because the Jew in the Church Age is not under God's program for Israel, he is under God's program for the Church. In the Church Age there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile. Both the believing Jew and believing Gentile are a brand new creation which has never before existed. That new creation is called 'Church'. A new spiritual species resulting from being placed into union with Christ via the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

After the Church Age is complete, a born again Jew in the Tribulation will be Israel, not Church. And a born again Gentile in the Tribulation will still be a Gentile, not Church.

This is real easy to understand. But the question is whether you are willing to set aside your bias and honestly study the Scriptures. If not, then you will never understand it. I suggest you go back to post #2 and make an effort to understand what I said. I clearly showed that the Church will not be on the earth when God resumes His program for Israel with the 7 year Tribulation. The Church is Church and Israel is Israel.
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Old 11-29-2012, 08:40 PM
 
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It seems to me that whenever CD Christian Forum posts start exceeding 2 pages in length and including a variety of language and other obscure references, somebody is waaay off track. God has not hidden His plan for mankind or over-complicated things so that only a select few, trained scholars can piece things together. It's pretty simple ... or, as J. Vernon McGee used to say, "God puts His Spiritual cookies on the bottom shelf ... so the kids and those with honest, seeking hearts can get to them".

Simply put, the 'body of Christ' (Christ's church on earth) is comprised of born-again Believers in Jesus Christ. The criteria is the same ... whether they are Jew, Greek, male, female, slave or free. Further, Jesus Christ (alone) is the Way, the Truth and the Life ... and No man comes to the Father, but, by Christ" --- Why complicate it beyond that??
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Old 11-30-2012, 02:41 AM
 
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Stay on the issues. One issue is the assertion by Christian Zionism that God now has two different peoples, all physical Israel and the church. Why would those who claim to be Christians place so much emphasis upon the support of a people who have rejected Christ for 2,000 years, though a small remnant did accept him?

Why not try to re-direct the topic to something other than the issue of whether scripture teaches that God now has two different peoples, all physical Israel, and the church, because if one knows scripture to some extent he realizes that the theology of Darby and others contradicts what the New Testament says?

"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." John 10: 16

"So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." Romans 12: 5

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5. One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." Ephesians 4: 4-6

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3: 28

These four texts are only one part of scripture which say God has one group of his people. Another group of scriptures relevant to the issue of the two house theory are Romans 9: 6-8, Galatians 4: 25-26 and also Romans 2: 28-29.

In Ephesians 2: 11-19 Paul says those who were formerly Gentiles in the flesh and alienated from the commonwealth of Israel are, in Christ, made to be close by his blood, and the differences between former Gentiles and former Jews are abolished, to make the two groups into one body and former Gentiles in the flesh are made fellow citizens of the household of God.

A logical implication of these statements is that those who were formerly Gentiles in the flesh become, in Christ, and by his blood, a part of the commonwealth of Israel. But we know from John 3: 1-7 that the commonwealth of Israel as physical Israel must be reborn in Christ to enter into the kingdom of God. Again, a logical implication of John 3: 1-7 is that both former Jews in the flesh and former Gentiles undergo a change in becoming born again, a large change that translates them into the household of God.

But to say, in effect, that Ephesians 2: 11-19 means former Gentiles become part of an Israel reborn in Christ, alongside the small remnant of physical Israel who accepted Christ, is just an opinion, is to seek to undermine that which is of faith. A Marxist, using the dialectic process of Hegel, would try to make an absolute truth, such as that in scripture, into an opinion, in order to better diminish or even destroy that truth by use of the dialectic.

In talking to those who follow the theology of Darby and others, you often run into what has been called Higher Criticism, which is an academic and humanistic way of trying to diminish faith in scripture, to treat it as though it were just another book, written entirely by men. Followers of Darby will often claim that the context of a verse determines the meaning of particular words. This can be true in some instances, but to use this as a principle to diminish faith in scripture and to divert the truth toward a man-made theology is going against faith.

The preacher, the congregation and friends within it with which one has a
relationship, become authority which in the dialectic process moves
toward replacing the absolute authority of God, "it is written."

When "it is written" is the absolute authority, rather than a man-made theology which on important issues goes against scripture, then how the words of the Bible came to be created
and inspired by the Holy Spirit becomes crucial(Psalm 12: 6-7, Psalm 119:
89, Matthew 4: 4, II Peter 1: 21, II Timothy 3: 16).

"The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.7. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12: 6-7

"For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven." Psalm 119: 89

"But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Mathew 4: 4

"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." II Peter 1: 21

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. II Timothy 3: 16
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Old 11-30-2012, 05:25 AM
 
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The "church" as a Body of Christ Different From Israel Reborn In Christ

There were three great English translations from the Greek Textus Receptus of Erasmus, the first being that of William Tyndale (1525), the second the Geneva Bible (1599), and the third the King James Version (1611).

The Geneva Bible and the King James Version both translate the important Greek word ekklesia, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance Number 1577, as church. Strongs says ekklesia means a calling out, a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation, Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members...assembly, church."

What is the origin of our English word "church" ? See

http://www.aggressivechristianity.ne...s/ecclesia.htm

""Church" comes from the Old English and German word pronounced "kirche." In Scotland, it was "kirk."

The following entries are from the Oxford Universal English Dictionary:

Church [Old English cirice, circe; Middle English chereche, chiriche, chirche; whence churche, cherche, etc.: -Greek Kuriakon...]

Kirk The Northern English and Scottish form of CHURCH, in all its senses."

So, there was a Greek word Kuriakon which had a different meaning than the Greek word ekklesia, which is used so many times in the New Testament. A Kuriakon involves a Lord, and this was a human Lord of some kind or perhaps a pagan god. An ekklesia in Greek is a meeting, assembly or congregation.

William Tyndale in his English translation of the Textus Receptus of 1525 (and later) consistently translated ekklesia as congregation, not as Kuriakon or "church" as did the Geneva Bible and the King James Version which came later, in 1599 and 1611.

For example, in the Geneva Bible and King James Version the word "church" appears many times in the Book of Acts. Look, or example, at Acts 8: 1, in the Geneva Bible: "1 And Saul consented to his death. And at that time, there was a great persecution against the Church which was at Jerusalem, and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judea and of Samaria, except the Apostles. "

The word "church" which should not have a capital C is from ekklesia in Acts 8: 1. In fact, The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament, by George Ricker Berry, 1958. has "assembly" for ekklesia and not "church." I am not sure the original Geneva Bible capitalized church; a modern editor or publisher might have added the capital C. Even the NIV does not capitalize church in Acts 8: 1.

Now look at the King James Version for Acts 8: 1: "And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles."

Note that the King James Version does not capitalize "church." Ekklesia or "church" in the King James is always with a little c.

Now lets see how William Tyndale translated ekklesia in Acts 8: 1, which is just one verse of a great many in the New Testament which contain ekklesia.

"Saul had pleasure in his deeth. And at yt tyme there was a great persecucion agaynst the congregacion which was at Ierusalem."

"Translating" Tyndale's old English, Acts 8: 1 says "Saul had pleasure in his death. And at the time there was a great persecution against the congregation which was at Jerusalem."

Tyndale is consistent in translating ekklesia as congregation, not as church.

Why is this important? Its partly because the English word "church" has an original meaning different from the Greek ekklesia, as shown above. And even more important, the English word "church" beame a capital C "Church" under the Roman Catholic Church.

A meeting, assembly or congregation is not a Body of Christ. The identity of a group of God's people who are born again in Christ and are the elect is not described by the concept of a meeting, assembly or congregation. We would have to ask "An assembly of what?"

And identity and one's position in his doctrines is what Christ is talking about in Luke 13: 24-27,
"Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26. Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity."

"Whence" means where.

But the Catholic Church made the ekklesia, the meeting, into their capital C "Church," which, to them, is a Body of Christ, and is different from physical Israel, and any other Israel, such as the Israel (which is) of God of Galatians 6: 16. Catholic theology says their "Church" replaced Israel.

But the theology of John Darby, Edward Irving, C.I. Scofield, Lewis S. Chafer and many others down to John Hagee came along in the 19th century and proclaimed that God now has two distinctly different peoples, the Jews, or all physical Israel, and the capital C Church. In proclaiming that God now has a second group of people called the "Church," Darby et al are following the Catholic Church in making the "Church" into a Body of Christ different from any form of Israel.

Christ said "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matthew 15: 24

"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." John 10: 16

"So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." Romans 12: 5

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5. One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." Ephesians 4: 4-6

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3: 28

Darby, Irving, Scofield, Chafer et al are wrong. Christ does not have two groups of people that are now his. He has one saved people. You can call that one group the Body of Christ, the elect, the saints, Israel born again in Christ, the Israel (which is) of God, or all Israel, meaning Israel as the spiritual house of I Peter 2: 5-9.

There is another interesting and important difference between the way Tyndale translates a Greek word and the way the Geneva Bible and the King James Version translate the word.
.
Romans 13: 1-4 King James Version:

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4. For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Romans 13: 1-4: Geneva Bible

"1 Let) every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no
power but of God; and the powers that be, are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God; and
they that resist, shall receive to themselves condemnation.
3 For Magistrates are not to be feared for good works, but for evil. Wilt
thou then be without fear of the power? Do well, so shalt thou have praise of the
same.
4 For he is the minister of God for thy wealth, but if thou do evil, fear; for he
beareth not the sword for nought; for he is the minister of God to take
vengeance on him that doeth evil."

Romans 13: 1-4: Tyndale Bible

"1 Let every soule submit him selfe vnto the auctorite of ye hyer powers. For there is no power but of God.
2 The powers that be are ordeyned of God. Whosoever therfore resysteth power resisteth the ordinaunce of God. And they that resist shall receave to the selfe damnacio.
3 For rulars are not to be feared for good workes but for evyll Wilt thou be with out feare of the power? Do well then: and so shalt thou be praysed of the same.
4 For he is the minister of God for thy welth. But and yf thou do evyll then feare: for he beareth not a swearde for nought: "

For those who don't like the English of William Tyndale's time (14921536) , It says "Let every soul submit himself unto the authority of the higher powers. For there is no power but of God. The powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth power resisteth the ordinance of God. And they that resist shall receive to the self damnation. For rulers are not to be feared for good works but for evil, wilt thou be without fear of the power? Do well then: and so shalt thou be praised of the same. For he is a minister of God for they wealth. But if thou do evil then fear: for he beareth not the sword for nought."

A key word is the Greek word εξουσιαις, exousia, in verse one. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance says Number 1849 means authority,jurisdiction,liberty, power, right, strength...from 1832 in the sense of ability..."

The Tyndale Bible translates exousia as authority, but the Geneva Bible and the King James Version translate the word as power. There is an important difference between authority and power. Authority can mean the absolute authority of God, while power can mean the power of a human dictator. And the Tyndale Bible, in translating exousia as authority rather than power can determine for the reader whether Paul is talking about the authority of God as vested in the leaders of his flock, or about men as powers of human government.

The Christian churches have thought Paul is talking about obeying human government, when he is talking about obeying God's ministers. So, many present day preachers tell their congregations to obey the government which is now evil in many ways. In part, through his ministers God chastens those who lack righteousness and that can bring on the peaceful fruit of righteousness (Hebrews 12: 11).
You are missing the point that Gentiles are grafted into the Faith of Israel...Not the other way around...
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Old 11-30-2012, 09:43 AM
 
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Byte speak, especially one liners, is often ambiguous. Saying that Gentiles are grafted into Israel might mean that those who were formerly Gentiles in the flesh become part of Israel as Paul strongly implies in Ephesians 2: 11-19, and are equal to those who were formerly Jews in the flesh.

But there is another thing that is probably meant by Gentiles being grafted into Israel. And that is the idea that Romans 11 says that Gentiles are grafted into physical Israel rather than into a metaphoric olive tree whose root is Jesus Christ and whose natural branches are the remnant of Israel who accepted Christ.

"26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"

This is the verse in Romans 11 that requires more than just the use of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance to look up verses to interpret it.

"For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches." Romans 11: 16

To interpret this verse by scripture look at the verses in the New Testament where firstfruit and holy are used. Its a who, not a house. It has to be Jesus Christ. The word holy is the key to identifying the root as Christ.

To those in Christian Zionism, Israel is the firstfruit and it is holy. But scripture never says this.

To those in the theology of Darby and others, Israel replaces Jesus Christ as the root of the tree into which Gentiles are grafted in. And the theology starts by saying Israel, or the Jews, are now one of God's peoples and are the chosen, and that since all scripture must be literally interpreted, then in scripture the word Israel must always mean all physical Israel, with no distinction being made between those in Israel who rejected Christ and those who accepted him and his doctrines.

"...how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?" Romans 11: 24

Paul said in verses 20, 17, 19, 22 that those in unbelief were broken off the olive tree. How then can the branches of the olive tree, whose root is Jesus Christ, be all physical Israel, since all of physical Israel which rejected Christ are broken off? The answer is in Romans 11: 5. The natural branches are the small remnant of physical Israel who accepted Christ.

"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes." Fathers refers to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, etc. By "touching" the translators mean concerning the election. Look up Paul's use of Election in Strong's and see what he means by it. The statement "as touching the election, they are beloved..." could have been made clearer by saying which group is the elect. But the group which is the elect cannot be those who rejected Christ. The elect is the remnant which accepted Christ.

And there is a big difference between those of physical Israel who accepted Christ and those who rejected him, even at the time when the only Christian group was that at Jerusalem, before Paul received his revelation and began his ministry to the non-Jews.

The interpretations of verses 16 and 24 are determined to some extent by the theology of Darby, Scofield, and Chafer, et al. But the interpretation of verse 26 is even more dependent upon that theology's starting points - that God now has two different peoples, all physical Israel, and the church, and that all scripture must be literally interpreted. In other words, the theology demands that "all Israel shall be saved" mean all physical Israel shall be saved, not Israel born again in Christ, not the Israel of God of Galatians 6: 16, nor the spiritual house of I Peter 2: 5.

Also Galatians 3: 3-29, Romans 2: 28-29, Romans 9: 6-8, Galatians 4: 25-26 and Ephesians 2: 11-20 contradict the theology's insistence that all Israel in Romans 11: 26 must mean that all physical Israel shall be saved sometime because they remain the chosen people by virtue of their genetics.


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Old 12-01-2012, 05:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by northwye View Post
"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes." Fathers refers to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, etc. By "touching" the translators mean concerning the election. Look up Paul's use of Election in Strong's and see what he means by it. The statement "as touching the election, they are beloved..." could have been made clearer by saying which group is the elect. But the group which is the elect cannot be those who rejected Christ. The elect is the remnant which accepted Christ.


Rom_11:28 Indeed, as regards the gospel, ones hostile toward you, but as regards the election, beloved for the sake of the fathers.

Note above, you put father in the dative singular...And not the plural...


Quote:
Originally Posted by northwye View Post
And there is a big difference between those of physical Israel who accepted Christ and those who rejected him, even at the time when the only Christian group was that at Jerusalem, before Paul received his revelation and began his ministry to the non-Jews.

The interpretations of verses 16 and 24 are determined to some extent by the theology of Darby, Scofield, and Chafer, et al. But the interpretation of verse 26 is even more dependent upon that theology's starting points - that God now has two different peoples, all physical Israel, and the church, and that all scripture must be literally interpreted. In other words, the theology demands that "all Israel shall be saved" mean all physical Israel shall be saved, not Israel born again in Christ, not the Israel of God of Galatians 6: 16, nor the spiritual house of I Peter 2: 5.

Also Galatians 3: 3-29, Romans 2: 28-29, Romans 9: 6-8, Galatians 4: 25-26 and Ephesians 2: 11-20 contradict the theology's insistence that all Israel in Romans 11: 26 must mean that all physical Israel shall be saved sometime because they remain the chosen people by virtue of their genetics.

Paul also states that not all in Isreal are of Israel, but, only those that are the seed of the Promise...I've also read somewhere that by Gentiles is meant that, all those of the Seed of Israel that have lost their identities through being conquered or enslaved and deported throughout the world and do not even realize that they are of the Seed of Israel any longer, are the ones being spoken of, however, I must do more research on that in order to ascertain it's validity...
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Old 12-01-2012, 06:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by northwye View Post
Stay on the issues. One issue is the assertion by Christian Zionism that God now has two different peoples, all physical Israel and the church. Why would those who claim to be Christians place so much emphasis upon the support of a people who have rejected Christ for 2,000 years, though a small remnant did accept him?

Why not try to re-direct the topic to something other than the issue of whether scripture teaches that God now has two different peoples, all physical Israel, and the church, because if one knows scripture to some extent he realizes that the theology of Darby and others contradicts what the New Testament says?

"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." John 10: 16

"So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." Romans 12: 5

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5. One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." Ephesians 4: 4-6

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3: 28

These four texts are only one part of scripture which say God has one group of his people. Another group of scriptures relevant to the issue of the two house theory are Romans 9: 6-8, Galatians 4: 25-26 and also Romans 2: 28-29.

In Ephesians 2: 11-19 Paul says those who were formerly Gentiles in the flesh and alienated from the commonwealth of Israel are, in Christ, made to be close by his blood, and the differences between former Gentiles and former Jews are abolished, to make the two groups into one body and former Gentiles in the flesh are made fellow citizens of the household of God.

A logical implication of these statements is that those who were formerly Gentiles in the flesh become, in Christ, and by his blood, a part of the commonwealth of Israel. But we know from John 3: 1-7 that the commonwealth of Israel as physical Israel must be reborn in Christ to enter into the kingdom of God. Again, a logical implication of John 3: 1-7 is that both former Jews in the flesh and former Gentiles undergo a change in becoming born again, a large change that translates them into the household of God.

But to say, in effect, that Ephesians 2: 11-19 means former Gentiles become part of an Israel reborn in Christ, alongside the small remnant of physical Israel who accepted Christ, is just an opinion, is to seek to undermine that which is of faith. A Marxist, using the dialectic process of Hegel, would try to make an absolute truth, such as that in scripture, into an opinion, in order to better diminish or even destroy that truth by use of the dialectic.

In talking to those who follow the theology of Darby and others, you often run into what has been called Higher Criticism, which is an academic and humanistic way of trying to diminish faith in scripture, to treat it as though it were just another book, written entirely by men. Followers of Darby will often claim that the context of a verse determines the meaning of particular words. This can be true in some instances, but to use this as a principle to diminish faith in scripture and to divert the truth toward a man-made theology is going against faith.

The preacher, the congregation and friends within it with which one has a
relationship, become authority which in the dialectic process moves
toward replacing the absolute authority of God, "it is written."

When "it is written" is the absolute authority, rather than a man-made theology which on important issues goes against scripture, then how the words of the Bible came to be created
and inspired by the Holy Spirit becomes crucial(Psalm 12: 6-7, Psalm 119:
89, Matthew 4: 4, II Peter 1: 21, II Timothy 3: 16).

"The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.7. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12: 6-7

"For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven." Psalm 119: 89

"But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Mathew 4: 4

"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." II Peter 1: 21

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. II Timothy 3: 16
The Church and Israel are two separate peoples as has been shown in posts #2 and #4. A believing Jew (or Hebrew) who died before the Church Age began on the Day of Pentecost belongs to Israel. Not to the Church. A Jew who believes in Christ during the Tribulation will belong to Israel. Not to the Church.

The Church is an intercalation; an insertion which interrupts the Dispensation of Israel. The dispensation of Israel was interrupted so that the Church, in which a believer is neither Jew (Israel) or Gentile, but is Church which is a new creation, could be formed. After the Church is taken off the earth the remainder of the dispensation of Israel will run its course during the seven year Tribulation.

The fact that during the Church Age both Jew and Gentile are in one body (in Christ) does not negate the fact that Jews both before and after the Church Age belong to Israel and not to the Church. Israel and the Church are two separate peoples under two different divine programs.
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