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jrhockney, where does it say in the Bible that "Satan gets destroyed in the end"? He doesn't get destroyed in the abyss for the 1000 years. He doesn't get destroyed in the lake of fire and brimstone. Maybe you have a revelation that goes beyond John's Revelation?
I think that the word "destroyed" may be a relative term in the bible. Perhaps "mostly defeated" is a better term especially as it applies to the end of Revelations considering the tone of those chapters. Satan being cast into a lake of fire while shouting "Haha! I got more souls than you so I'm the winner and you're the loser!" seems rather absurd. Obviously, God not winning more souls (or all souls) doesn't sound like a complete victory to me either, but its not really for us to decide what constitutes a victoy and what doesn't. May greater concern with fundamentalism is how it certain scriptures saying God desires all to be save and other that say all will be save fit into this picture and into God's overall consistancy. Whatever the case, if Satan can't stop himself from being thrown in to the lake of fire, that sure doesn't sound like he is more "powerful." The tone set in Revelation is also that of victory, not of "woe is me, satan sent more people to hell."
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Originally Posted by Eusebius
I appreciate your ideas. IF God has given all mankind a "free-will" (I don't believe He has but just to make a point) and both Satan and God are trying to get as many as they can into their Heaven or Hell, do you believe Satan would have to be weaker and less wise than God if Satan gets billions and God a miserly few? If a football team wins 99% of their games and then wins the Super Bowl, are they the stronger team or did they just luck out? If Satan just somehow caught God while He was supposedly sleeping or in a far-away country and pulled a fast one on Him, then what does that say about God?
I personally fall somewhere between Freewill and Predestination. I've seem many versions of UR and I personally prefer (though not completely convinced by it)the one where everyone eventually chooses God at some point in Eternity, so it a way, they are predestined because God forsees it happening, but its by their own freewill that the choice is made. Anyways, regarding the superbowl analogy, I agree that it seems lame that God wins so few, but it also depends on Gods overall intentions. For Example, if God's primary goal was to destroy, defeat, or isolate evil for all eternity, and came up with a plan that would do it by using his son and those who chose him, it wouldn't be about the numbers. I however, happen to think God is more caring of all humanity than that and it would be insanely unfair to have the majority be tortured forever all because of how God set his plan up.
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Originally Posted by Eusebius
My reply:
When does everyone get a crack at salvation that died prior to Christ coming? And when does everyone get a crack at salvation who never heard of Jesus?
You stage your beliefs upon "possibilities" while I on absolutes. God never works in the realm of possibilities. He chooses, He saves, He locks up ALL in stubbornness that He would have mercy on ALL (Rom.11:32).
Under my favorite model of UR, The people before Jesus would already ready know by now what he did and would eventually choose him. I'm also still researching the various uses of the word "ALL" in scripture. When it comes to eternal things regarding the after life, your right, I do stage my beliefs on possibilities because I'm not dead and in the afterlife yet lol. When it comes to my Christian beliefs, I like to stick to the basics of doctrine and salvation, but when it comes to particulars of the afterlife and questionable verse meanings, until I'm completely convinced I'm not going to stake anyones salvation on a particular view by saying, "don't worry, you'll have another chance for sure in the afterlife." It's still my hope that this is the case though.
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Originally Posted by Eusebius
I would highly suggest to you and the readers that 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 absolutely (at least in my understanding) refutes a cutoff point after death. How so? After death is abolished then those who were held by death (the second death specifically) will come forth, be subjected to Christ and then God will be All in all just like those who are Christ's are subjected to Him and God is All in them.
1 Corinthians 15:22-28 is another passage I'm still researching the various interpretations of. I'd like to see it the way you do, but since the salvation of so many could still be at stake with the wrong interpretation, I'm still very cautious. I have to admit though, a part of me would love to see the panicky rush to convert people to Christianity finally slow down a bit and see more of us just teach people about Jesus.
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Originally Posted by Eusebius
P.S. I really like how you think jrhockney. I wonder if you went through seminary or Bible college? You seem to have a very sharp mind.
I appreciate that. I like hearing your perspecitve as well and your higher respect for scripture than I hear from many URs. I never went to bible college, but I have been on staff at a few Churches (Worship Leader lol) and I'm a major nerd when it comes to researching all the hardest topics of Christianity and philosophically analyzing them both scripturally and logically...and trying to have a sense of humor about it lol. I use to be very conservative, but I came to the conclusion over the years that I was doing a dishonor to people who disagreed with me when I didn't really give their arguments an honest look and try to understand their perspective...once I started doing that, I found myself not being as conservative as I once was on many topics I use to think could only be conservative.
1 Corinthians 15:22-28 is another passage I'm still researching the various interpretations of. I'd like to see it the way you do, but since the salvation of so many could still be at stake with the wrong interpretation, I'm still very cautious. I have to admit though, a part of me would love to see the panicky rush to convert people to Christianity finally slow down a bit and see more of us just teach people about Jesus.
"but since the salvation of so many could still be at stake with the wrong interpretation"
Jrhockney, here is a thought.
Do you really think God left salvation in our hands? So that a little wrong interpretation would somehow cause billions to be lost forever? As if God didn't see it coming?
Salvation is in God's hands, not ours. That is our faith.
"but since the salvation of so many could still be at stake with the wrong interpretation"
Jrhockney, here is a thought.
Do you really think God left salvation in our hands? So that a little wrong interpretation would somehow cause billions to be lost forever? As if God didn't see it coming?
Salvation is in God's hands, not ours. That is our faith.
Believe me I understand your logic and some of it has been in my past arguments. I'd also like to believe that God planned salvation of all people ahead of time, but it depends on whether or not that was actually a priority of creation and not something else such as a plan to overcome evil that also required the doom of most people, as unfair to humanity as that may sound. We are still pots in Gods hands for which he has various uses and I too hope in the end he will remake or save all off his creations. But anyways, I'm still researching the possibilities.
Do you ever recall seeing a race, where one team seems to dominate the entire race, but suddenly another team bursts into the light to win the race? The first team looks like they are doing really good, looks like they are gonna win. Their strategies seem to be beating the other team easily, but suddenly the tables turn and another group wins.
In the end, the numbers are not what matters. The devil has already lost.
Nobody is more powerful than the Almighty God Jehovah.
Satan fools a lot of people through false teachings, things that are appealing to us, etc. Jehovah created this earth, he created us humans, animals, natural resources...he even created Satan. Jehovah sits back and allow things to happen for a reason, because in the end, people will soon realize who was more powerful, and which religion was telling the truth the whole time.
According to the popular teaching God is trying to get as many as He can into Heaven and Satan is trying to get as many as he can into Hell.
Also according to the popular teaching the majority of mankind are going to hell. So, who is wiser and more powerful at getting people to Hell rather than to Heaven?
Saying God gave man a free-will choice does nothing to help the situation either. The God who supposedly created free-will should have the wisdom to at least entice people to His Heaven just as Satan entices people to Hell.
So, according to the popular teaching, Christians teach that Satan is more powerful and more wise than God.
Satan gets his billions while God gets His measly few.
It's not a matter of "Wisdom" or power/skill/talent/whatever. God wants those who truly love him to be with him, not much different than us when you think about it. He's not getting into a bean counting contest with satan. The problem as I personally see it is satan uses earthly desires to spread his message and we are fallen, carnal creatures. He (satan) broadcasts sex, power, money, admiration, pleasure, rage, instinct, indulgance, and self-rightousness. Weither we admit it we all crave these things because we are fleshy creatures like the animals with primal cravings. People unwilling to step back are going to fall within his tenticles and the final result speaks for itself.
God ask us to for all intensive purposes "shut ourselves off" and submit to his will. The submission part alone is a non-starter for many due to ego. God wants sacifice, commitment, abstinance, delayed gratification, forgiveness, modesty, poverty and self-reflection. Now why do you think satan tragically is going to draw more?
God wants those who truly love him to be with him. He's not getting into a bean counting contest with satan.
Does He wants to be truly loved by many?
If the answer is yes then He is in a bean counting contest.
If the answer is yes then it's His will to be truly loved.
Depends a bit on who you ask but about 5-10% make it into heaven; which means His will to be loved failed 90-95%.
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God wants sacifice,
(Hos 6:6) For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
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I like hearing your perspecitve as well and your higher respect for scripture than I hear from many URs. I never went to bible college, but I have been on staff at a few Churches (Worship Leader lol) and I'm a major nerd when it comes to researching all the hardest topics of Christianity and philosophically analyzing them both scripturally and logically...and trying to have a sense of humor about it lol. I use to be very conservative, but I came to the conclusion over the years that I was doing a dishonor to people who disagreed with me when I didn't really give their arguments an honest look and try to understand their perspective...once I started doing that, I found myself not being as conservative as I once was on many topics I use to think could only be conservative.
