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Old 12-05-2012, 02:10 PM
 
17,966 posts, read 15,887,131 times
Reputation: 1009

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Sinner: Umm, hi God.
God: Hi.
Sinner: What's up?
God: Judgment.
Sinner: O.K.
God: I have a list of every sin you ever committed.
Sinner: I didn't know they made scrolls that long.
God: It's old technology but, hey, whatever works, right?
Sinner: I guess so but don't you think that is overdoing it a little? I mean, over 5 miles long?
God: It's mostly to make an impact. Don't take it so personally.
Sinner: O.K. Why am I here?
God: Did you ever believe in My Son Jesus?
Sinner: No one ever told me He existed so how could I believe in Him?
God: Ignorance is no excuse! (**lightning and thunder strike!**)
Sinner: What did He ever do for me?
God: He died for all your sins. All of them. All 5 miles long!
Sinner: Wow! that's great! So I get to go into Your heaven?
God: Well, blush, even though He died for your sins, I'm going to have to make His death worthless just so I can get you into Hell.
Sinner: That doesn't sound very fair to your Son or to me.
God: Well, if I let people like you into Heaven all the Christians will complain and, well, I am run by the Christian majority up here so I have to do their bidding.
Sinner: O.K. so let me get this straight: Christ died for my sins but you are going to make me die for my sins, right?
God: Righto! Bingo!
Sinner: So His death was just a good show?
God: Well, you have to admit I did make everything go black and cause a great earthquake to happen. It was all pretty neat.
Sinner: But why doesn't His death save me?
God: Well let's just say it comes down to not what He did for you but what you can do for yourself of your own free-will.
Sinner: Moderator cut: Inappropriate language.
God: Rules are rules. Sorry. Now go to Hell!

Last edited by june 7th; 12-06-2012 at 08:07 AM..
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:15 PM
 
Location: A great city, by a Great Lake!
15,896 posts, read 11,933,975 times
Reputation: 7502
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
They need to forgive Bill Belichick first ouch.

Hey. This is one Browns fan that liked Belichick. I didn't like how the Bernie situation was handled, but they have mended fences, and in fact when the Browns were returning to the NFL, Bernie Kosar was part of that group. His first recommendation for the head coach of the new Browns was none other than Bill Belichick! After that the organization pretty much threw Bernie under the bus! And people wonder why the team has been perennially bad and a mockery of a great football franchise since their return. At any rate, we have a new sheriff in town, and a bunch of young talent, and with the right leadership, we could be on the rise in the near future. Maybe new ownership is our repenting for the past sins. (Trying to stay on religion).
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:16 PM
 
Location: Florida
76,950 posts, read 47,272,488 times
Reputation: 14762
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
How do you know that? Are you now claiming Omniscience?
I really think you do need me to speak for your beliefs especially when those beliefs make God and Christ look like two bafoons who can't get what they want to get done get done and who are impotent to save anyone . . . each person has to save himself/herself.

So tell me Jim, do you believe Christ died for sinners but God is going to require sinners to die for their sins?
No. You don't tell me what to do. If you don't like it then go somewhere else or read other posts.
It is very simple: Christian beliefs are based on what the Bible teaches, yet you come in here with some numbers game scenario, which you invented, and then you lie about it being a Christian belief. No, it is not a Christian belief. YOU MADE IT UP.

Your entire argument is built a false teaching, and your whole purpose is to sell it as a Christian teaching, which you think will prove that Christian God is a "bafoon" (your word). It's a lie, plain and simple.

I will give you a chance to prove the "number game" is a Christian teaching. Show me where the Bible teaches that God and Satan are playing a numbers game, where the winners and losers are determined by the number counts. Show it to me, or admit you lied about it.
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:52 PM
 
17,966 posts, read 15,887,131 times
Reputation: 1009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post

Your entire argument is built a false teaching,
That's what I've been trying to get you to see. My entire argument is built upon the false teaching which Christians teach. Glad you finally see it!
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:21 PM
 
Location: Florida
76,950 posts, read 47,272,488 times
Reputation: 14762
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
That's what I've been trying to get you to see. My entire argument is built upon the false teaching which Christians teach. Glad you finally see it!
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Old 12-06-2012, 07:32 AM
 
17,966 posts, read 15,887,131 times
Reputation: 1009
O.K. now we are at the crux of the matter:

These are the views of some major denominations:

Catholics: "The Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world," but . . . you have to do all the sacraments, but most likely will end up in the not as hot as Hell Limbo because the Lamb of God just made it *possible* for your sins to be taken away.

Calvinists: Christ came into the world to save sinners and died for all our sins, but . . . that was only for the elect.

Arminians: Christ died for the sins of the world but God is going to make you pay for your sins. It is all based upon your free will. Only the ones with the greatest will get saved.

Universalists: Christ died for the sins of the world. The sins of the world have been died for. There is nothing you can do to make that a reality. What's done is done. Even your believing it is due to God giving you the belief. We don't believe so He can die for our sins, we just believe that He did die for our sins. Believing doesn't make it happen. It happened and thus we believe what He did.
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:23 AM
 
17,966 posts, read 15,887,131 times
Reputation: 1009
Sinner: Umm, hi God.
God: Hi.
Sinner: What's up?
God: Judgment.
Sinner: O.K.
God: I have a list of every sin you ever committed.
Sinner: I didn't know they made scrolls that long.
God: It's old technology but, hey, whatever works, right?
Sinner: I guess so but don't you think that is overdoing it a little? I mean, over 5 miles long?
God: It's mostly to make an impact. Don't take it so personally.
Sinner: O.K. Why am I here?
God: Did you ever believe in My Son Jesus?
Sinner: No one ever told me He existed so how could I believe in Him?
God: Ignorance is no excuse! (**lightning and thunder strike!**)
Sinner: What did He ever do for me?
God: He died for all your sins. All of them. All 5 miles long!
Sinner: Wow! that's great! So I get to go into Your heaven?
God: Well, blush, even though He died for your sins, I'm going to have to make His death worthless just so I can get you into Hell.
Sinner: That doesn't sound very fair to your Son or to me.
God: Well, if I let people like you into Heaven all the Christians will complain and, well, I am run by the Christian majority up here so I have to do their bidding.
Sinner: O.K. so let me get this straight: Christ died for my sins but you are going to make me die for my sins, right?
God: Righto! Bingo!
Sinner: So His death was just a good show?
God: Well, you have to admit I did make everything go black and cause a great earthquake to happen. It was all pretty neat.
Sinner: But why doesn't His death save me?
God: Well let's just say it comes down to not what He did for you but what you can do for yourself of your own free-will.
Sinner: Man that is intercoursed up!
God: Rules are rules. Sorry. Now go to Hell!
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:19 PM
 
17,966 posts, read 15,887,131 times
Reputation: 1009
So, Christ died for your sins but God is going to make YOU die for YOUR sins?
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:56 PM
 
1,493 posts, read 1,369,101 times
Reputation: 385
Regarding the wording of the OP, I don't think its fair to say that because in the fundamentalist view Satan get more souls than God, that Satan is also more "powerful." He still gets destroyed in the end by God. I think it may be fair to say that God is not as convincing as Satan and ultimately does not get what he wants because he is either not powerful enough or not doesn't desire it enough. If God is omnipotent and capable of doing anything thing that perhaps is not a logical absurdity (like a making square-circle), then he should be capable of being convincing enough for everyone to eventually freely choosing his Son.

Everyone eventually freely choosing his Son is not a logical absurdity, because given enough time, it is something that is possible. If it is not possible because God made death the cutoff point for choosing, then he intentionally rigged the system so all would not be saved and his desire that all be saved becomes suspect to insincerety. I've heard various theological explanations such as saying God has "dual wills," but such ideas really do not jive with much of what is said in the bible and seems more like a creative but shallow way of explaining how actually not all things are possible through God. I'm also not convinced that being convincing enough even in a persons normal lifespan is an impossibility. With a little more divine feedback such as appearing to everyone and saying: "I exist, choose me to perish," It would seem a lot more likely that everyone could choose him.

Lastly, I have yet to see any irrefutable proof that death actually is the cutoff point in scripture for a decision. If it is the cutoff point and the most fundamentalist most of Christianity is accurate, then God has no one to blame but himself for for losing the vast majority of people because of the way he set up the universe and the laws that govern it. I've discussed this last point about the fundamentalist model of God's design being logically absurd many times in the past with all the details...and I don't remember anyone ever responding with anything other than "I think your wrong..somehow." ;p

Last edited by Jrhockney; 12-06-2012 at 03:05 PM..
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:02 AM
 
17,966 posts, read 15,887,131 times
Reputation: 1009
jrhockney, where does it say in the Bible that "Satan gets destroyed in the end"? He doesn't get destroyed in the abyss for the 1000 years. He doesn't get destroyed in the lake of fire and brimstone. Maybe you have a revelation that goes beyond John's Revelation?

You wrote:
"Regarding the wording of the OP, I don't think its fair to say that because in the fundamentalist view Satan get more souls than God, that Satan is also more "powerful."

I appreciate your ideas. IF God has given all mankind a "free-will" (I don't believe He has but just to make a point) and both Satan and God are trying to get as many as they can into their Heaven or Hell, do you believe Satan would have to be weaker and less wise than God if Satan gets billions and God a miserly few? If a football team wins 99% of their games and then wins the Super Bowl, are they the stronger team or did they just luck out? If Satan just somehow caught God while He was supposedly sleeping or in a far-away country and pulled a fast one on Him, then what does that say about God?

You wrote:
"Everyone eventually freely choosing his Son is not a logical absurdity, because given enough time, it is something that is possible."

My reply:
When does everyone get a crack at salvation that died prior to Christ coming? And when does everyone get a crack at salvation who never heard of Jesus?
You stage your beliefs upon "possibilities" while I on absolutes. God never works in the realm of possibilities. He chooses, He saves, He locks up ALL in stubbornness that He would have mercy on ALL (Rom.11:32).

I DID think this was/is interesting what you wrote:
"Lastly, I have yet to see any irrefutable proof that death actually is the cutoff point in scripture for a decision. If it is the
cutoff point and the most fundamentalist most of Christianity is accurate, then God has no one to blame but himself for
for losing the vast majority of people because of the way he set up the universe and the laws that govern it. I've
discussed this last point about the fundamentalist model of God's design being logically absurd many times in the past with
all the details...and I don't remember anyone ever responding with anything other than "I think your wrong..somehow." ;p"

I would highly suggest to you and the readers that 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 absolutely (at least in my understanding) refutes a cutoff point after death. How so? After death is abolished then those who were held by death (the second death specifically) will come forth, be subjected to Christ and then God will be All in all just like those who are Christ's are subjected to Him and God is All in them.

P.S. I really like how you think jrhockney. I wonder if you went through seminary or Bible college? You seem to have a very sharp mind.
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