Can anyone explain to me, in your OWN words.... (prayers, Christ, creation)
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Can ANYONE explain to me, in your OWN words....not quoting the Bible....how you would answer some of the questions that eventually led me to lose my Christian faith?
I can't stress enough how much I want someone to explain to me in HUMAN terms, because trust me, I know the Bible, I was a born-again, Bible-believing, scripture-quoting, homeschooling, fundamentalist Christian for decades.
Here is one of the most haunting issues that has never been satisfactorily explained to me. It has to do with eternal torment by a loving, powerful, and just god.
I think that everyone here can see the difference between a loving parent and a cruel parent, humanly speaking. A parent who physically harms, who severely punishes so as to inflict immense pain, perhaps puts lit cigarettes against the child's skin, or holds lit matches to their child, should be reported to Child Protective Services! Surely no one here would describe those actions as loving. Is there ANY disobedience by a child that makes punishment of pain, torment, and firey burning by the parent acceptable and loving?
No, of course not. Never would the infliction of severe burning and torment by one human upon another be considered loving or just.
God has given us brains that understand what it means for a parent to exhibit loving behavior, and it does not mean to beat or burn or physically harm their child, even once, let alone for years and years, non-stop, never letting up.
So how can anyone use those same terms, "loving and just," to describe a god who chooses to inflict not just torment, but eternal never-ending horrific torment, on anyone who happens to not believe in him? Remember, god is also described as "all-powerful," so he can do or not do ANYTHING he chooses. He never HAD to make the sin/punishment system this way....he chose to. So god, as your heavenly parent, chooses to eternally torment some of his children, and Christians still see him as just and loving. Doesn't it seem that the definition of "love" changes tremendously when we look at god's method of punishment compared to human parents' punishment of their children?
All-loving, completely just, and all-powerful. How can these three attributes exist in a god who has chosen to eternally torment the vast majority of his human creation? Please don't tell me that people choose this destiny by their disbelief in god. I want to know why god would have ever made eternal torment a possibility at all. No human being, with their imperfect love for their children, would ever want to create a place of eternal torment for their child.
Again, answers in your own words only. The use of scriptures will only add to my belief that there is no logical, satisfactory answer to these questions that have so troubled me.
What you are asking is unexplainable. Oh, people will try, but it will not make sense, as you discovered.
Try as you might, it can never be that a being who calls Himself 'Love' would allow or purpose parts of His own creation to be tortured forever. And it can never be just that someone be tortured forever for simply being born as a sinner (never being asked to made in such a way). It is a simple contradiction in terms. And if one is open to it, they will see the truth reveals that God does not let any one suffer in torment forever.
If you are up for a lot of reading, I suggest looking up Ray Smith's writings at bible-truths.com
Don't let the "bible-truths" name turn you off - it is the most sensible and biblical thing I had read when I was asking the same questions you are asking now.
If you are up for a lot of reading, I suggest looking up Ray Smith's writings at bible-truths.com
Don't let the "bible-truths" name turn you off - it is the most sensible and biblical thing I had read when I was asking the same questions you are asking now.
Thank you legoman. I look forward to checking out that site.
See God chose the perfect love righteous road against the deceptions of indifference and selfishness.....Then he created man to interact , and become His family ..... God then had His Challenge of the angels and spirits He created which rejected God plan for His family, which was man ... So man fell to the deception of the angels and spirits who manipulated man away from God , as God had no children or Family..... Then God made man a family with the Israel tribes ,with the promise that Jesus Christ would come , But still not all people of Israel were compatible with God as they gave their lives over to the fallen angels and the dark spirit who ruled in sin against God ..... Then Jesus came and then God could collect people for heaven which all the righteous people of ancient Israel and Christians could be collected for God and His family.... See people give their lives and obey the commands and interact the Love of God ...... Or they can ignore the plan of God and say myths or hate him and say he don`t exist, and never create a relationship with the loving God , So then the devil and his hoards will claim the authority over these people ...... God rejects the devil and his hoards and gives NO mercy to these dark spirits ....So with a person passes from this world then if they do not have a loving relationship with God then there will be No protection from God for their spirit with will Not pass at death , and their soul will die which is the memories and the living person knowledge with die, then the spirit will live with No help from God , and the angels of the Lord will put these spirits in their place ...... So get God in your life today , as He will never condone the sin you have without Jesus who can take the sin away , Jesus needs people to repent and turn away from sin and turn to Jesus to receive His spirit ...... If your Church will not help you get saved then you must find a different Church
Kayanne,
First, I am deeply sorry that you feel like you have lost or are losing your faith in God. I think most of Christianity has this idea of eternal torment wrong, I think the Bible clearly teaches something very different than that also. I know there have been alot of responses and I haven't gone through the 9 pages to read them so I apologize if this has already been given, but a wonderful resource of learning about this very topic is Heaven Hell | Heaven or Hell | Heaven to Hell. If you have any questions please feel free to PM me.
One does not need to have a religion to believe in a God or Creator, that belief comes from within and does not need a sacred book or any sacred writings to tell you how to believe or worship the Creator. Your God/Creator is not within the confines of a book. When you believe that all things are created equal and all living things have spirits and to be treated with respect, the same respect you expect to be treated with, then you are one with your Creator, until then you're merely following somebody else's words and those words may not necessarily be true for you.osay
Can ANYONE explain to me, in your OWN words....not quoting the Bible....how you would answer some of the questions that eventually led me to lose my Christian faith?
I can't stress enough how much I want someone to explain to me in HUMAN terms, because trust me, I know the Bible, I was a born-again, Bible-believing, scripture-quoting, homeschooling, fundamentalist Christian for decades.
Here is one of the most haunting issues that has never been satisfactorily explained to me. It has to do with eternal torment by a loving, powerful, and just god.
I think that everyone here can see the difference between a loving parent and a cruel parent, humanly speaking. A parent who physically harms, who severely punishes so as to inflict immense pain, perhaps puts lit cigarettes against the child's skin, or holds lit matches to their child, should be reported to Child Protective Services! Surely no one here would describe those actions as loving. Is there ANY disobedience by a child that makes punishment of pain, torment, and firey burning by the parent acceptable and loving?
No, of course not. Never would the infliction of severe burning and torment by one human upon another be considered loving or just.
God has given us brains that understand what it means for a parent to exhibit loving behavior, and it does not mean to beat or burn or physically harm their child, even once, let alone for years and years, non-stop, never letting up.
So how can anyone use those same terms, "loving and just," to describe a god who chooses to inflict not just torment, but eternal never-ending horrific torment, on anyone who happens to not believe in him? Remember, god is also described as "all-powerful," so he can do or not do ANYTHING he chooses. He never HAD to make the sin/punishment system this way....he chose to. So god, as your heavenly parent, chooses to eternally torment some of his children, and Christians still see him as just and loving. Doesn't it seem that the definition of "love" changes tremendously when we look at god's method of punishment compared to human parents' punishment of their children?
All-loving, completely just, and all-powerful. How can these three attributes exist in a god who has chosen to eternally torment the vast majority of his human creation? Please don't tell me that people choose this destiny by their disbelief in god. I want to know why god would have ever made eternal torment a possibility at all. No human being, with their imperfect love for their children, would ever want to create a place of eternal torment for their child.
Again, answers in your own words only. The use of scriptures will only add to my belief that there is no logical, satisfactory answer to these questions that have so troubled me.
Your own words seem very adequate to me, kayanne. I'm sorry you had such a negative experience with Christianity and were part of a Church that teaches this kind of nonsense. Just know that not all Christians believe this nor are they taught it at church. To me, believing in God is knowing that all the rules will be fair and there will be wonderful surprises. You seem to already have figured that out, though.
Let me rephrase my original post, down to one question:
I'm just trying to figure out how eternal torment can ever be equated with love. Nothing more in this pared down question.
It's not. Humanity was never intended to know evil. Humanity was never intended to experience what is reserved for Satan. Before humanity followed Satan's demonic power-play (wanting to become like God) ... God told A & E in unambiguous terms "You will surely die".
When A & E chose to follow Satan's demonic wanting to become like God, humanity succumbed themselves to the fate awaiting Satan. That is not God's fault for remaining true to himself when he said " you will surely die".
No where does God imply that he is a God of averages..... " you will surely die". A & E chose to lose their loving relationship with God, lost perfection, lost the title of Children of God.
Last edited by twin.spin; 12-08-2012 at 07:36 AM..
Can ANYONE explain to me, in your OWN words....not quoting the Bible....how you would answer some of the questions that eventually led me to lose my Christian faith?
I can't stress enough how much I want someone to explain to me in HUMAN terms, because trust me, I know the Bible, I was a born-again, Bible-believing, scripture-quoting, homeschooling, fundamentalist Christian for decades.
Here is one of the most haunting issues that has never been satisfactorily explained to me. It has to do with eternal torment by a loving, powerful, and just god.
I think that everyone here can see the difference between a loving parent and a cruel parent, humanly speaking. A parent who physically harms, who severely punishes so as to inflict immense pain, perhaps puts lit cigarettes against the child's skin, or holds lit matches to their child, should be reported to Child Protective Services! Surely no one here would describe those actions as loving. Is there ANY disobedience by a child that makes punishment of pain, torment, and firey burning by the parent acceptable and loving?
No, of course not. Never would the infliction of severe burning and torment by one human upon another be considered loving or just.
God has given us brains that understand what it means for a parent to exhibit loving behavior, and it does not mean to beat or burn or physically harm their child, even once, let alone for years and years, non-stop, never letting up.
So how can anyone use those same terms, "loving and just," to describe a god who chooses to inflict not just torment, but eternal never-ending horrific torment, on anyone who happens to not believe in him? Remember, god is also described as "all-powerful," so he can do or not do ANYTHING he chooses. He never HAD to make the sin/punishment system this way....he chose to. So god, as your heavenly parent, chooses to eternally torment some of his children, and Christians still see him as just and loving. Doesn't it seem that the definition of "love" changes tremendously when we look at god's method of punishment compared to human parents' punishment of their children?
All-loving, completely just, and all-powerful. How can these three attributes exist in a god who has chosen to eternally torment the vast majority of his human creation? Please don't tell me that people choose this destiny by their disbelief in god. I want to know why god would have ever made eternal torment a possibility at all. No human being, with their imperfect love for their children, would ever want to create a place of eternal torment for their child.
Again, answers in your own words only. The use of scriptures will only add to my belief that there is no logical, satisfactory answer to these questions that have so troubled me.
Well, I think you've gotten your answer Kayannee. When Christians who believe what you were taught, they ignore your questions. Those who want to feel that they aren't part of the religion that teaches this, as Christianity certainly does i.e. the parable of the rich man/poor man etc, they deny it and make up their own interpretations. They call it truth, love, spirit, or whatever makes them feel best and to legitimize their faith.
You seem to be at a turning point, which could lead you toward being an agnostic theist and ultimately an agnostic atheist if you follow your logical mind. Or, if you would rather convince yourself that your prior programming was not in vain, you might want to stop your questioning now and rely upon your blind faith.
Well, I think you've gotten your answer Kayannee. When Christians who believe what you were taught, they ignore your questions. Those who want to feel that they aren't part of the religion that teaches this, as Christianity certainly does i.e. the parable of the rich man/poor man etc, they deny it and make up their own interpretations. They call it truth, love, spirit, or whatever makes them feel best and to legitimize their faith.
You seem to be at a turning point, which could lead you toward being an agnostic theist and ultimately an agnostic atheist if you follow your logical mind. Or, if you would rather convince yourself that your prior programming was not in vain, you might want to stop your questioning now and rely upon your blind faith.
Yes Kayannee It will be hard to gather an objective answer from a Biblian, as they have (asthey have told me) Have ONLY the Bible.
I recommend a book called "Evolution of God" Christians will not touch this book based on the title alone. It does however point out how the Christian (and post Christian) concepts of God came to exist. Starting with spirit worship, evolving to theism, monotheism...etc
The concept of American christianity seems to have evolved from a Biblian concept of God being intrinsically flawed and something to be feared.
I would point out that in my own words, we really cannot know what the essene (nazarean) Jesu actually taught. We know he had a small group of followers, travelled throughout occupied Judea, and had to have spent time talking about life and philosophy with his followers. Each follower took away a different interpretation of these meetings with Jesu....We have no idea what these teachings were, specifically, because later political issues forced the subversion of much of the orks
We know it must have been something out of the ordinary.
Besides the legalism of modern Christianity, which I avoid like the palgue, we need to re-explore the concept of the CHrist Consciousness. It is not aan act of worship or an act of conversion, but it is simply a concept, a concept of living one's life to the pursuit of good. Kind of like the Buddhist teachings, we learn from Buddhas's writings but we do not worship Buddha....but we can in a way become a Buddha, or a Christ, or a Prophet should we so focus our minds on it. We focus our minds on doing good deeds, spreading ahppiness and peace for the sake of these concepts themselves. That alone is something very few, if any , self professed Christians can understand.
Great thing is that none of these require a belief in a flawed god, or a religion, or the legalism associated with it.
Besides the legalism of modern Christianity, which I avoid like the palgue, we need to re-explore the concept of the CHrist Consciousness. It is not aan act of worship or an act of conversion, but it is simply a concept, a concept of living one's life to the pursuit of good. Kind of like the Buddhist teachings, we learn from Buddhas's writings but we do not worship Buddha....but we can in a way become a Buddha, or a Christ, or a Prophet should we so focus our minds on it. We focus our minds on doing good deeds, spreading ahppiness and peace for the sake of these concepts themselves. That alone is something very few, if any , self professed Christians can understand.
Great thing is that none of these require a belief in a flawed god, or a religion, or the legalism associated with it.
While I am no longer a Christian, nor do I take the bible narrative literally, and I can get on board with your "Christ Consciousness", I do see it differently. Aisi, the main thrust of the whole biblical account is to wake us up to something which may or may not be part of Buddhist teachings, I don't know.
That is, that rather than our focus being on striving to do and be good, in order to truly affect a change in us at our core, our focus (Consciousness) must be on the Christ/God/Love within us which IS all that is good and is always working to manifest itself in and through us. It's a subtle difference, perhaps, but I think it is an infinitely important distinction because it shows us where the power of good comes from.
The Bible states that we are "transformed by the renewing of our minds." I believe that this renewing has to do with an increasing awareness that God, the Conscious Source of all that is good, is not separate from us, but that we are part of it, and it is who we are. When we focus on who we truly are (Christ in us) and accept it as truth, the "good deeds" of Christ (the fruit of the Spirit) will be increasingly manifested in our lives.
This is how I see it. Ymmv.
Last edited by Pleroo; 12-08-2012 at 10:14 AM..
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