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Christ says in Matt. 7:21 Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he that DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER IN HEAVEN.
Many, not all, Christians argue among themselves for many reasons..
There are many different denominations and non denominations within Christianity just as in most other religions.
Although Christians have the same bible there is the matter of interpretation which varies from person to person, church to church, commentator to commentator.
Some Christians think their interpretations are the truth and every one else is wrong. They all think they are correct and have the handpicked verses to prove it ...Thing is the other denominations also think they are right and have different verses to prove it
Some think they have to make others believe they have the only truth and will argue their defense to the point of getting angry with their brothers and sisters, as we have seen on these forums. From my experience (studies, friends, etc) with the various worldviews it seems the Christians are the most divided when it comes to doctrine.
We are all unique in our personalities, our environment. our way of life and our social standing we will never agree 100% on anything
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
These debates about what is required for salvation are utterly incomprehensible to me. Virtually all will agree that Christ is the Savior and we have nothing to do with it. Yet . . . illogically and incomprehensibly . . . they will begin to argue about what it is we need to do to be saved!! God preserve my sanity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd
You are right because it does at least start with Jesus. That's enough said right there. But, people still want to believe that salvation to us is too good to be true as if God would give us salvation then tell us oh by the way, you aren't able to be saved anymore because you didn't leap frog through all of these DOCTRINAL INTERPRETATIONS BY OUR DIFFERENT RELIGIONS ON HOW TO BE SAVED COMPLETELY. It's as if what Jesus did for all of us wasn't quite enough without us helping Jesus out. Does Jesus really need our help to save us from ourselves? Hell NO!!!!
Miss Blue hit the nail on the head early in this thread and antredd emphasized it. It is doctrine . . . specifically the "precepts and doctrines of men" that divide Christians. Ironically, we were warned against relying on the "precepts and doctrines of men." We are to place our Faith in Christ the Word of God who abides with us and His Holy Spirit to guide us to the truth God has "written in our hearts" . . . NOT the letters "written in ink." It requires enormous Faith in Christ to do that in the face of the stumbling blocks of doctrine and dogma perpetuated by the churches.
Miss Blue hit the nail on the head early in this thread and antredd emphasized it. It is doctrine . . . specifically the "precepts and doctrines of men" that divide Christians. Ironically, we were warned against relying on the "precepts and doctrines of men." We are to place our Faith in Christ the Word of God who abides with us and His Holy Spirit to guide us to the truth God has "written in our hearts" . . . NOT the letters "written in ink." It requires enormous Faith in Christ to do that in the face of the stumbling blocks of doctrine and dogma perpetuated by the churches.
Great Post!
And we need to test doctrines with the words of our Savior in John 7:[17] If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
Antredd asked the question earlier about "What is the will of God?" Paul said in I Cor. 1:[10] Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
I truly believe that if You and I are earnestly seeking to DO God's will, being directed by the Holy Spirit if we are possessors of it, then the Lord can show us TRUE DOCTRINE as opposed to the words of men.
I believe that the ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED doctrine is a false doctrine, even though it is believed by many who call themselves Christians.
Jesus said in John 8:[31] Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Heb. 10:[36] For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
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It's too bad that the people who claim to have the truth engraved into their hearts by the Holy Spirit, all pretty much disagree on the particulars. You wouldn't think the Holy Spirit would have so many different versions of the truth.
Good lord, my neighbor has been ranting next door in tongues. "Jesus blah blah blah BURN IN HELL!" for hours on end. He refers to that as "spiritual warfare". Yet when I've talked to him, he assures me that what he says and does is from the Holy Spirit. He's very sincere about having the "right" version of christianity. After all, it's written as plain as can be in the Bible!
The problem with doctrine is that it divides, and yet, that is exactly what it is supposed to do. I'm pretty sure that every Christian can agree to the following statement:
Man is saved by grace, through faith, not of ourselves; it is a gift from God and not of works.
But the doctrines on that statement are volumous, and depending on ones presuppositions, the manner and style of interpretation, etc. What is the definition of grace? It's easy to see then why there are so many 'denominations' out there, because no one agrees on what the doctrines of that statement are.
The problem with doctrine is that it divides, and yet, that is exactly what it is supposed to do. I'm pretty sure that every Christian can agree to the following statement:
Man is saved by grace, through faith, not of ourselves; it is a gift from God and not of works.
But the doctrines on that statement are volumous, and depending on ones presuppositions, the manner and style of interpretation, etc. What is the definition of grace? It's easy to see then why there are so many 'denominations' out there, because no one agrees on what the doctrines of that statement are.
Well said my friend. (hope you don't mind me calling you friend)
You mention that doctrine is what divides. I believe that the sword also divides and Jesus said:
Quote:
Matthew 10:34-35 (KJV)
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
So if we present God's word and people attack and divide over it then it is doing just what Jesus said He came to do. Maybe all this conflict is proof we are doing His will.
The problem with doctrine is that it divides, and yet, that is exactly what it is supposed to do. I'm pretty sure that every Christian can agree to the following statement:
Man is saved by grace, through faith, not of ourselves; it is a gift from God and not of works.
But the doctrines on that statement are volumous, and depending on ones presuppositions, the manner and style of interpretation, etc. What is the definition of grace? It's easy to see then why there are so many 'denominations' out there, because no one agrees on what the doctrines of that statement are.
You are transferring the goal from 2000+ years ago to today. Our savage and barbaric ancient ancestors were so culturally backward and uncivilized relative to today . . . that Christ's message of love and acceptance inevitably resulted in His horrendous scourging and crucifixion. If that isn't enough to highlight the differences . . . I don't know what will. Of course He caused division BACK THEN!!! This absurd retention of ancient ignorance and cultural anachronisms is intellectually inexplicable to me. How the accumulated knowledge and understanding of 2000+ years can be so egregiously ignored to retain such barbaric ideas is beyond me.
These debates about what is required for salvation are utterly incomprehensible to me. Virtually all will agree that Christ is the Savior and we have nothing to do with it. Yet . . . illogically and incomprehensibly . . . they will begin to argue about what it is we need to do to be saved!! God preserve my sanity.
You are spot on again, Mystic. This is the reason why I rarely post in here anymore. It`s always the same arguments about why this person isn`t really saved or that person isn`t. Everyone believing that they have the correct interpretation and couldn`t possibly be wrong. Different people saying with the utmost arrogance that they are saved and you aren`t. But then, pretending to be humble followers of Christ. All agreeing, as you said, that Christ is the Savior of All men and us, we, and them have nothing to do with it. Then proceeding to tell most other men(us, we, and them) that they aren`t "saved" because they didn`t do this , that, or the other thing. Or, they aren`t saved because their interpretation of acient text, written thousands of years ago in a different language and culture is wrong, and so they believe the "wrong" thing. Believing the wrong thing means you are not saved and lost forever. Unless, of course, you are able to muddle through all of the diiferent ideas, texts, religions, advice, and information that is out there and come around to their way of thinking in your limited number of earthly years. Then all is forgiven and you become saved. But then again, you had nothing to do with it. Welcome to the world of religious christianity.
I postedthe following on City-Data/forum-bible tallk on 04/29/2012:
“The wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy” (James 3:17)
OBTAINING ETERNAL LIFE
When I woke up earlier than usual this morning, I had been dreaming about people who had been discussing the topic of death. Since I am 81 years old, the thought went through my mind that this was an important topic for me to be thinking about. I thought about the millions of people who have been convinced that if they believe on Jesus Christ as being the Son of God, they are sure of having been born again and that they will go to heaven when they die. The words of Jesus appear to confirm this belief in John 10: [27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: [28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
I heard a highly respected Protestant preacher say recently that if we had ever believed in Jesus Christ as being the son of God, we can be assured that we have eternal life and that He has saved us from all our sins, past , present, and future.
But the words in Revelation 21:27 stuck in my mind: “And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.” And our Savior said in Matt. 10: [22] And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. And in John 8: [31] If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed.
Jesus said in John 14: [15] If ye love me, keep my commandments. And St. John said in 1John:2: [4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
St. Peter said in Acts 5: [32] And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. Paul said further in Rom. 8: [7] The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. [8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. [9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
So what do we base our hope of eternal life on unless we have truly repented and have been given the Holy Spirit, having a mind to obey our Lord and Savior, and then being faithful unto death (Rev. 2: [10] Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.)
Jesus promised in Matt. 5: [6] Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. And in Matt. 7: [7] Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. And in Luke 11: [13] If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Wishing us all well as we seek to know and DO the will of our heavenly Father,
Bob Prince
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Or, they aren`t saved because their interpretation of acient text, written thousands of years ago in a different language and culture is wrong, and so they believe the "wrong" thing. Believing the wrong thing means you are not saved and lost forever. Unless, of course, you are able to muddle through all of the diiferent ideas, texts, religions, advice, and information that is out there and come around to their way of thinking in your limited number of earthly years. Then all is forgiven and you become saved. But then again, you had nothing to do with it. Welcome to the world of religious christianity.
