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Romans 1 says that God has built into mankind the knowledge that 1. He exists and 2. What God's nature/character is like, so that man is without excuse..
If so why did God bother getting involved with creation? Why He used prophets to teach Israel?
Why did Jesus have a ministry and teach? Why did the Apostles teach?
All a waste of time? People would have known anyway...?
But the fact is God did send prophets and signs to Israel. Simply put He had a lot of contact with Israel.
But not with that Norwegian man. Is that equal treatment?
Although, as I mentioned before, Romans 1 does say that mankind is without excuse due to the inherent knowledge of God he has placed within us.
Ok. The man had inbuild knowledge. Maybe that's why he became religious? Wrong religion but still religious.
Because of that inbuild knowledge he might be without excuse but I think it also equals "gives little" Meaning that man only gets a few stripes.
1000BC, somewhere in Norway lives a pagan man that worships Norse gods.
The only way to salvation is believing in Jesus. Jesus appeared about 1000 years later in Israel.
That's far away from the man in both distance and time. Jewish writings are not available in Norway at that time.
The man has an open mind, sharp eye and is quite smart. He studies nature (God handiwork in His creation)
How can that man know Jesus? Is it possible for that man to be saved?
It seems to me 1000BC Jews have a huge advantage over that man. They have prophets that teach them the word of God. Maybe not all listen but at least they have the opportunity to learn.
It's written God is equally fair to everyone (no respecter of persons). In what way is it fair that God sends prophets/teachings to the Jews and not to the town where that Norwegian man lives? How can that man have even a small chance to be saved? It doesn't look like equal treatment to be cast in hell because of something the man had no way to know/learn.
Your view?
Israel was to be A Light unto the world, but failed...As for HaShem being a respector of persons, you misunderstand that verse...This verse is in conjunction with the vision Peter saw regarding the sheet that came down with all unclean animals on it, when HaShem instructed Peter to kill and eat, and Peter refused saying that no unclean thing had ever touched his lips, and HaShem said that he is not to call unclean which HaShem has called clean, later when the servants of Cornelius came, Peter understood what the vision meant, it meant that the Gospel was to be preached to the Gentiles, this is what Yeshua had meant when He stated that He had other sheep that were not of this fold (meaning the fold of the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, which are the ones that Yeshua was sent to find) and the other sheep, which He stated that He must also being and that there would be one fold and one Shepard, were the Gentiles...So, the discussion that Peter was having with Cornelius when he stated that verserelates to the vision and Peters relization of it's meaning...
Act 10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
Act 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
Act 10:3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
Act 10:4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
Act 10:5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon,whose surname is Peter:
Act 10:6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.
Act 10:7 And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;
Act 10:8 And when he had declared all these things unto them, he sent them to Joppa.
Act 10:9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
Act 10:10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
Act 10:11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
Act 10:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
Act 10:13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
Act 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
Act 10:15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
Act 10:16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
Act 10:17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,
Act 10:18 And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there.
Act 10:19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
Act 10:20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.
Act 10:21 Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?
Act 10:22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
Act 10:23 Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him.
Act 10:24 And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and had called together his kinsmen and near friends.
Act 10:25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
Act 10:26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.
Act 10:27 And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.
And here is Peter's realization of the vision of HaShem:
Act 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
Act 10:29 Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?
Act 10:30 And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,
Act 10:31 And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.
Act 10:32 Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee.
Act 10:33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.
This verse below is connected to verse 28:
Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Act 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
Act 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
Act 10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
Act 10:41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
Act 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
In the words of Paul Harvey...'And that's the rest of the story'..
Although, as I mentioned before, Romans 1 does say that mankind is without excuse due to the inherent knowledge of God he has placed within us.
"Without excuse" for what, though? Without excuse for a belief in God or without excuse for seeing God in the way the Abrahamic faiths see how? Without excuse for recognizing a Higher Power of some sort or without excuse for accepting the gospel of Jesus Christ (of whom millions have never heard)?
"Without excuse" for what, though? Without excuse for a belief in God or without excuse for seeing God in the way the Abrahamic faiths see how? Without excuse for recognizing a Higher Power of some sort or without excuse for accepting the gospel of Jesus Christ (of whom millions have never heard)?
Katzpur, I thought I would go ahead and copy the portion of Romans I was talking about so you could more easily read it. I know LDS only recognize the KJV, but I don't think you'd find any difference in content between the two. Basically, I would say this verse is communicating the idea that people are without excuse for their ungodly/sinful behaviour, and their idolatry (ie. Worshipping false gods). It does not say that only the Jews/Christians know better than to ignore God, do wrong things and to worship false gods. It says mankind are all without excuse for their sin, because God has revealed himself to a general degree, universally through His creation. What is accessible to all humans, according to this verse is knowledge of his power and his divine nature. That is quite a bit, if you think about it. So, all people are responsible for this general knowledge whether they hear anything more specific or not about Christ. They have enough to reach out and find Him if they choose ( obviously, I do not lean in a very Calvinistic direction ) . I think the general idea of this verse is that we are all accountable to Him for how we live our lives ; and whom or what we choose to worship.
Thoughts?
18*The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19*since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20*For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21*For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22*Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23*and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
24*Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25*They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26*Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27*In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28*Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29*They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30*slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31*they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32*Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
That is interesting! I had forgotten about those two passages. Although, as I mentioned before, Romans 1 does say that mankind is without excuse due to the inherent knowledge of God he has placed within us.
About the "few stripes".... I think C.S. Lewis, who was Anglican believed in some sort of purgatory, and that people would have to go through some sort of purifying process before being able to stand before a holy God. I don't know. That sure isn't part of my belief system as an Evangelical. But the few vs. Many stripes thing is an interesting concept to ponder.
Hi again.
Don't overlook
Deut 25:3 Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then your brother should seem vile to you.
God, not mankind, set 40 as the maximum number of stripes.
The Jews changed that into 39 because they wanted to be extra sure the didn't give oen strip to many because of miscounting for example. If a criminal recieved 41 stripes and died then the one who gave the lashes (or the one who orderd it) were guilty of murder.
2Cr 11:24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.....
OK it can be argued 39 is just a manmade thing. I have no problem with that. My point is God Himself set a very strickt maximum at 40. In other words, God limited the amount of punishment.
(The number 40 is used quite often in the Bible)
It's my belief the whole Bible is a pattern for unseen things. Some things that are seen but happen later.
I think the most well know in the sacrifice of lambs that pointed to the sacrifice of The Lamb.
Because punishment it limited to 40 for those in full knowledge the punishment for those that truly had (very) limited knowledge obviously is (far) less than 40.
So how many stripes will that pagan Norwegian man recieve? It can't be an endless beating in hell because God Himself limited it to 40.
I think it's also obvious Deut 25:3 isn't allowed to be twisted so punishment could be extended. Like 39 stipes and 50000 hits with a hammer plus a 1000 with a stick. I'm sure God wouldn't take it lightly if His law was applied in a way He obviously never meant.
So I think it's clear 40 shows a limitation. It's not my belief but for the sake of discussion let's assume 1 stripe equals a 1000 years in hell. Even then hell (stripes) is limited.
1000BC, somewhere in Norway lives a pagan man that worships Norse gods.
The only way to salvation is believing in Jesus. Jesus appeared about 1000 years later in Israel.
That's far away from the man in both distance and time. Jewish writings are not available in Norway at that time.
The man has an open mind, sharp eye and is quite smart. He studies nature (God handiwork in His creation)
How can that man know Jesus? Is it possible for that man to be saved?
It seems to me 1000BC Jews have a huge advantage over that man. They have prophets that teach them the word of God. Maybe not all listen but at least they have the opportunity to learn.
It's written God is equally fair to everyone (no respecter of persons). In what way is it fair that God sends prophets/teachings to the Jews and not to the town where that Norwegian man lives? How can that man have even a small chance to be saved? It doesn't look like equal treatment to be cast in hell because of something the man had no way to know/learn.
Your view?
We ALL came from the same Source/God...and that is where we will ALL return when we depart this physical realm...no matter what we've believed in this life. Our purpose is to manifest the Source/God into this world and that can be accomplished through ANY religious belief by LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF...a thread that runs through ALL religions. Jesus was just one of many teachers who taught us how to accomplish this. Anyone thinking or believing that they have the only EXCLUSIVE path to our Source/God...is, frankly, living in delusion and not fulfilling the purpose for which you were created. Just saying...
We ALL came from the same Source/God...and that is where we will ALL return when we depart this physical realm...no matter what we've believed in this life. Our purpose is to manifest the Source/God into this world and that can be accomplished through ANY religious belief by LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF...a thread that runs through ALL religions. Jesus was just one of many teachers who taught us how to accomplish this. Anyone thinking or believing that they have the only EXCLUSIVE path to our Source/God...is, frankly, living in delusion and not fulfilling the purpose for which you were created. Just saying...
... Of course, that depends on what one is willing to accept as their source of truth. Since this is the Christian Forum, one might imagine that the Bible was at least a small part of one's frame-of-reference. There are many compelling reasons beyond 'simple religious preference' to accept God's written and living Word, the Bible and Jesus Christ. But, that path is also narrow ... and many find themselves on the wide path that leads to destruction.
Matt. 7:13-14: 13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that
leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because[a] narrow is the gate
and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
By the way, I'm not sure which "religious belief/s" you are referring to, but, neither the Bible nor any other 'religion' of which I am aware (except, perhaps the Unitarians), teach the 'open end, humanistic philosophy' you have described above. Can you share with us the basis for your belief?
Katzpur, I thought I would go ahead and copy the portion of Romans I was talking about so you could more easily read it. I know LDS only recognize the KJV, but I don't think you'd find any difference in content between the two. Basically, I would say this verse is communicating the idea that people are without excuse for their ungodly/sinful behaviour, and their idolatry (ie. Worshipping false gods). It does not say that only the Jews/Christians know better than to ignore God, do wrong things and to worship false gods. It says mankind are all without excuse for their sin, because God has revealed himself to a general degree, universally through His creation. What is accessible to all humans, according to this verse is knowledge of his power and his divine nature. That is quite a bit, if you think about it. So, all people are responsible for this general knowledge whether they hear anything more specific or not about Christ. They have enough to reach out and find Him if they choose ( obviously, I do not lean in a very Calvinistic direction ) . I think the general idea of this verse is that we are all accountable to Him for how we live our lives ; and whom or what we choose to worship.
There are many compelling reasons beyond 'simple religious preference' to accept God's written and living Word, the Bible and Jesus Christ. But, that path is also narrow ... and many find themselves on the wide path that leads to destruction.
Matt. 7:13-14: 13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that
leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because[a] narrow is the gate
and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Jesus is the gate to life. That gate was opened nearly 2000 years ago. But let's assume the OT also can act as a gate to life. Then it's safe to say that gates wasn't present in 1000BC Norway.
Then it comes as no surprise to me the gate isn't found by most.
Sure it's so easy for educated Christians that studied the Bible for countless hours to firmly state it's all so obvious. To be honest personally I wouldn't have a clue about the God of Abraham without the Bible.
Yeah, the Bible states God is manifested in His creation. It's written so it's true. But who can put his/her hand on the Bible and declare he/she really sees the God of Abraham in nature?
What should I look at? Animals? Plants? Planets? I love and enjoy nature. I think it's beautiful. So did that Norwegian man. Is that that man supposed to look at a flower and suddenly understands Jesus is the path to God?
Perhaps the verse is totally misunderstood?
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) . I think the general idea of this verse is that we are all accountable to Him for how we live our lives ; and whom or what we choose to worship. 
