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Jesus "was" from the beginning: Pro 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
What this is saying is that at the cross, Jesus delivered to the Father that which was lost from the beginning making Jesus the Alpha and the Omega of the New Creation.
If that is the case, than God "is" Jesus and the Holy Spirit all in one.
For the salvation of all that was lost was solely in the hands of God and not mankind's to solve.
You think my analogy falls flat or are you sure that it falls flat?
Well, antredd that depends on what your definition of ‘God’ is. When I see the word "God" I immediately assume that someone is being identified because the capitalized word "God" looks and behaves like a name and we use names to identify people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd
You have just proven my point stronger. Using my analogy with Eve, she would be the same as man, in nature, in essence, not the same person as the man but the same in terms of being frail, emotional, and eventually dying as man.If John says that the Word was God, he's basically saying what I have been pointing all along that Jesus is exactly like His Father, has no beginning, created everything, and in essence has the same nature as His father. We can talk about roles and positions that Jesus took on out of being obedient to His Father's will. Mike made that quite clear in a previous post.
Eve was man by nature. This is absolutely correct. However, having the divine nature of "God" does not make one "God". The one "God" is simply not an essence and a divine nature. Divine natures and essences do not have a beginning, creates everything and so forth.
Last edited by kids in america_; 12-30-2012 at 03:48 PM..
The Bible clearly teaches that there is only one God
That's not clear at all. At least, it isn't consistently clear throughout the entire bible. In Exodus, Moses challenges Pharoh's magicians to a competition of who can work the most wonders. While Moses wins this contest, the message seems to be that his God is more powerful than they Egyptian gods, not that the Egyptian gods do not exist.
That's not clear at all. At least, it isn't consistently clear throughout the entire bible. In Exodus, Moses challenges Pharoh's magicians to a competition of who can work the most wonders. While Moses wins this contest, the message seems to be that his God is more powerful than they Egyptian gods, not that the Egyptian gods do not exist.
How often does the Bible have to say a thing for it to be clear? Or true?
Isa. 43:10 "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.11] "I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me. 12] "It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, And there was no strange god among you; So you are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And I am God. 13] "Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?"
Isa. 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.
Isa. 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me;
Isa. 45:21 "Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me. 22] "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.
Isa. 46:9 "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me,
1 Cor. 8:4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.5] For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6] yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
The false gods referred to in the Bible have no actual existence in reality. They and the religions of which they are a part are the invention of Satan who deceives the world. The Bible does not teach polytheism.
The early church understood that the Bible, while saying that God is one, also identifies three as God. Later, Tertullian coined the word Trinitas - Trinity with regard to that fact.
In the Didache, "Almighty God" is recognized to be simply the Father. Clement viewed the Father alone as the one true God and Creator of the universe. Justin Martyr called Jesus "another god" who was subject to the "most true God".Irenaeus repeatedly insisted the Father alone was the only true God. It is clear that these men were most definitely not advocating the theological idea of a three in one God or apply the word "God" to all three together. And yes trinitas’ was first coined by Tertuallian. Tertuallian was importing pagan concepts which were familiar and had been for millennia. Now I hope you don’t think Tertullian was a Trinitarian because Tertullian insisted the Son was inferior to the father and there was a time when the Son did not exist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
This isn't about debate, it's about truth. I've spent more than enough time with you on other threads about this. And the mistake is yours. Your reference to Paul and what he said was explained to you on another thead.
There’s a difference between explaining and explaining away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Listen. You keep on believing what you want. Do not expect me to take up my time on someone who rejects what the Bible says, not out of ignorance, but simply out of a refusal to believe what the Bible says.
How often does the Bible have to say a thing for it to be clear? Or true?
Isa. 43:10 "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.11] "I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me. 12] "It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, And there was no strange god among you; So you are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And I am God. 13] "Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?"
Isa. 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.
Isa. 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me;
Isa. 45:21 "Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me. 22] "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.
Isa. 46:9 "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me,
1 Cor. 8:4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.5] For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6] yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
The false gods referred to in the Bible have no actual existence in reality. They and the religions of which they are a part are the invention of Satan who deceives the world. The Bible does not teach polytheism.
Yeah, yeah. In some parts, the bible clearly espouse monotheism. But not in all parts. The passages I referred to in Exodus make no reference to "false gods." The bible is a mish-mash of different books written by different people in different times with different perspectives. It is not internally consistent. It is not a coherent whole. That's my point.
How often does the Bible have to say a thing for it to be clear? Or true?
Isa. 43:10 "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.11] "I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me. 12] "It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, And there was no strange god among you; So you are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And I am God. 13] "Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?"
Isa. 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.
Isa. 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me;
Isa. 45:21 "Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me. 22] "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.
Isa. 46:9 "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me,
1 Cor. 8:4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.5] For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6] yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
The false gods referred to in the Bible have no actual existence in reality. They and the religions of which they are a part are the invention of Satan who deceives the world. The Bible does not teach polytheism.
So when the Bible says that God is the "God of gods," does this mean He was the "God of false gods" or not even the "God of gods" at all?
Yeah, yeah. In some parts, the bible clearly espouse monotheism. But not in all parts. The passages I referred to in Exodus make no reference to "false gods." The bible is a mish-mash of different books written by different people in different times with different perspectives. It is not internally consistent. It is not a coherent whole. That's my point.
You speak from the standpoint of liberal theology or as an unbeliever. As I said, how many times does the Bible have to say something for it to be true?
Deut. 4:35 also states that there is but one true God. "To you it was shown that you might know that the LORD, He is God; there is no other besides Him.
And Deut. 4:39 "Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the LORD, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.[/color]
The Egyptian gods you refer to in Exodus were not real. They were false gods.
Contrary to the claims of skeptics, the Bible is internally consistent and coherent.
Last edited by Michael Way; 12-30-2012 at 10:02 PM..
Well, antredd that depends on what your definition of ‘God’ is. When I see the word "God" I immediately assume that someone is being identified because the capitalized word "God" looks and behaves like a name and we use names to identify people.
Eve was man by nature. This is absolutely correct. However, having the divine nature of "God" does not make one "God". The one "God" is simply not an essence and a divine nature. Divine natures and essences do not have a beginning, creates everything and so forth.
I will say this. We have no words in any of the many languages spoken around the world to truly describe who God is. All we can do is try to best describe who He is in our finite mind. When you see the title God, in capital letters, one could be addressing God the Father, or God the Son, or God the Holy Spirit, all three, of just one of the three. So again, it doesn't change who God is---Father, Son, Holy Spirit all wrapped up in One. That's the best way I can describe the Godhead without making it more than what it is. The burden of proof still falls back on you when John 1 clearly teaches who the Word is.
Yeah, yeah. In some parts, the bible clearly espouse monotheism. But not in all parts. The passages I referred to in Exodus make no reference to "false gods." The bible is a mish-mash of different books written by different people in different times with different perspectives. It is not internally consistent. It is not a coherent whole. That's my point.
Are you saying that the bible isn't inerrant?
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