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And guess who it was who were not receiving of him ? Correct those that loved the bible that much they adorned themselves with phylacteries
"Which of the two did what his father wanted?" "The first," they answered. Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you
Notice Jesus did not say instead of you or you will not enter in, but ahead of you. And what does entering the kingdom mean if not actually experiencing the treasures of the kingdom in reality?.
How about that, Jesus said that prostitutes and tax collectors were entering the Kingdom of God. It's strangely ironic that the bible is keeping so many people from entering the Kingdom, but I'm afraid that's the truth of the matter. I suppose it should have dawned on me many years ago when I kept seeing men standing in pulpits holding their 66 book collection high in the air and screaming condemnation out to the masses like some kind of demon possessed being. There are many evil spirits and the religious spirit is one of the meanest known to human-kind. Don't believe me? Look at the blood that has been shed in the name of God. Here is an account of what some very religious men did:
Jesus Is Mocked Matthew Chapter 27
27 Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the governor’s headquarters,d and they gathered the whole battalion before him. 28 And they stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him, 29 and twisting together a crown of thorns, they put it on his head and put a reed in his right hand. And kneeling before him, they mocked him, saying, “Hail, King of the Jews!” 30 And they spit on him and took the reed and struck him on the head. 31 And when they had mocked him, they stripped him of the robe and put his own clothes on him and led him away to crucify him.
The Crucifixion
32 As they went out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name. They compelled this man to carry his cross. 33 And when they came to a place called Golgotha (which means Place of a Skull), 34 they offered him wine to drink, mixed with gall, but when he tasted it, he would not drink it. 35 And when they had crucified him, they divided his garments among them by casting lots. 36 Then they sat down and kept watch over him there. 37 And over his head they put the charge against him, which read, “This is Jesus, the King of the Jews.” 38 Then two robbers were crucified with him, one on the right and one on the left. 39 And those who passed by derided him, wagging their heads 40 and saying, “You who would destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save yourself! If you are the Son of God, come down from the cross.” 41 So also the chief priests, with the scribes and elders, mocked him, saying, 42“He saved others; he cannot save himself. He is the King of Israel; let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him. For he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’” 44 And the robbers who were crucified with him also reviled him in the same way.
The Death of Jesus
45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour.h 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” 47 And some of the bystanders, hearing it, said, “This man is calling Elijah.” 48 And one of them at once ran and took a sponge, filled it with sour wine, and put it on a reed and gave it to him to drink. 49 But the others said, “Wait, let us see whether Elijah will come to save him.” 50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.
51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. 54 When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled with awe and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!”
Fair enough. Historical context. Luke records this parable. Luke chronicled Paul and was no doubt influenced by Paul and Paul's pharisaic theology.
Add to that Jesus' familiarity with pharisaic thought. Why do you think that Jesus spoke of aionios kolasan, and said nothing unequivocally of unending punishment? (He did talk of things which imply annihilation, but that's a different argument)
The crux of the unending punishment argument relies upon the mistranslated aionios kolasan as punishment for ever and ever. Plus whatever the promulgators can pull from hither and yon to substantiate their case.
I have specifically challenged unending punishment believers to make their case without relying upon 1) Revelation (which is not universally accepted as canonical) and 2) without the OT, since the Jews did not believe in an afterlife or a process of purification, at least not until the time of the Hasmonians, long after the Jewish canon was settled.
OK, so you admit the story doesn't talk about it, but you drew that conclusion from somewhere else. You can't call it a story of temporary purification when it does not hint the duration of the punishment. You do seem to agree it is about punishment though.
How about that, Jesus said that prostitutes and tax collectors were entering the Kingdom of God. It's strangely ironic that the bible is keeping so many people from entering the Kingdom, but I'm afraid that's the truth of the matter.
Why would the tax collectors and prostitutes not enter? Anyone who believes will enter, and Jesus said they believed.
It is very simple, and in perfect harmony with all the other verses which clearly teach anyone who believes will enter: "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved". Your profession has absolutely nothing to do with it, and prostitutes, drug dealers, taxi drivers, politicians, pastors, etc will enter just like any other believer.
For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 08-19-2014 at 04:32 AM..
Why would the tax collectors and prostitutes not enter? Anyone who believes will enter, and Jesus said they believed.
If you read it in the spirit that Jesus said it, it was a huge rebuke to the scribe and pharisee. He was saying the very people you depise, look down up on and believe are unworthy are hearing the message of reconciliation back to God and entering into that which is been given to them before you
Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
It is nothing to do with avoiding eternal hell and making it to heaven because you have the right set of beliefs.
The kingdom of God is our supply to all things that pertain to life and godliness.
OK, so you admit the story doesn't talk about it, but you drew that conclusion from somewhere else. You can't call it a story of temporary purification when it does not hint the duration of the punishment. You do seem to agree it is about punishment though.
Not "punishment", but "pruning", or "correction" ...
I simply do what you do. I piece together my argument from hither and yon, and make my case.
The doctrine of hell was constructed over time and carved into stone during the time of the medieval European church. Augustine was the prime mover and the one who led the charge to get Revelation into the Christian canon. He managed only to convince the western church. The eastern church rejected him.
Hmmm ... a question has occured to me. Do the eastern sects believe in hellfire and damnation? I dont know. If they do, what is their argument, especially if they do not accept Revelation?
Over on the atheist forum someplace once asked me if I accepted this that and the other doctrines. I replied that the very early Christians did not believe in the virgin birth, nor did they believe in a couple other doctrines that I had beaten through my thick skull when I was being raised strict catholic. The only one I could not deny was the resurrection, because the early Christians absolutely believed in the resurrection.
I still wonder why folks like you absolutely believe in unending punishment. Other than the cites from here, there, and everywhere, why do folks like you believe there is eternal damnation? Why do folks like you believe there HAS to be unending punishment? Why do folks like you choose infinite justice over infinite mercy?
I still wonder why folks like you absolutely believe in unending punishment. Other than the cites from here, there, and everywhere, why do folks like you believe there is eternal damnation? Why do folks like you believe there HAS to be unending punishment? Why do folks like you choose infinite justice over infinite mercy?
It is not a matter of choosing something which sounds the best. You could look up one of the many threads about the word "eternal". There has been many discussions about it.
It is not a matter of choosing something which sounds the best. You could look up one of the many threads about the word "eternal". There has been many discussions about it.
aionios means "age long" and NOT "forever and ever". kolasan is more problematic, seeing as there are so few occurrences. But recall that Jesus mostly spoke in agricultural terms. So the translation of "pruning" or "correction" makes more sense contextually. One does not "punish" a tree. One "prunes" it to help it grow stronger.
I note that you make no effort to answer my questions. Why is it that you choose a God of infinite justice (aka hellfire and damnation) while sublimating infinite mercy?
aionios means "age long" and NOT "forever and ever". kolasan is more problematic, seeing as there are so few occurrences. But recall that Jesus mostly spoke in agricultural terms. So the translation of "pruning" or "correction" makes more sense contextually. One does not "punish" a tree. One "prunes" it to help it grow stronger.
I note that you make no effort to answer my questions. Why is it that you choose a God of infinite justice (aka hellfire and damnation) while sublimating infinite mercy?
Again, it is not a matter of choosing something which sounds the best. Are you shopping for a god which sounds the best, or will you accept the only true God there is? There aren't many truths out there to choose from, there is only one truth.
Eternal vs temporary discussion is off topic, and had been discussed in great detail on other threads. In short the same word 'eternal' is used to describe eternal life, and eternal punishment, so following your logic eternal life is not eternal either. Is that what you believe?
Again, it is not a matter of choosing something which sounds the best. Are you shopping for a god which sounds the best, or will you accept the only true God there is? There aren't many truths out there to choose from, there is only one truth.
Believe it or not. I seek the truth, and that begins with understanding. The Jews did not believe in any kind of afterlife at all, at least not until some were corrupted by the beliefs of the Babylonians. Truth can come only from understanding the full cultural context and proper translation of the original language.
Despite what the descendants of the tyranny of the medieval Roman church (said as an enlightened former strict Catholic) may retain out of that tradition, the message of Jesus was a mind blower. Be right with God, be right with your neighbor, and eternal life is yours! A message so powerful that a minor Jewish sect grew into arguably the most influential force in history!
Someone else pointed this out (I do not recall if it was in this thread or another) that since the Jews did not believe in hell, it is not unreasonable to believe that Jesus did not either. He mentions aionios kolasan and it is the meaning of that phrase that is the crux of the argument. I believe the hellfire and damnation argument is a false belief, based upon distorted theology.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
Eternal vs temporary discussion is off topic, and had been discussed in great detail on other threads. In short the same word 'eternal' is used to describe eternal life, and eternal punishment, so following your logic eternal life is not eternal either. Is that what you believe?
Aion is NOT eternity. Eternity applies only to God, who has no beginning and no end. He is God of the ages (aion, period of time that has a defined beginning, but also has a definite or indefinite defined end) All of us live in defined ages. My life, your life, everyone's life is an age (aion). Think about it.
Jesus say that those who do not meet the criterion of living a Christian life, which means good works, will enter aionios kolasan.
You say my discussion is off topic. I disagree. The topic is not a discussion but an assertion that the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is a real event about two real people, one who ends up in heaven, one who ends up in hell. I am making the argument that it IS a parable and that Jesus was teaching that even after death, one can be corrected, and become worthy of heaven.
The message of Jesus is one of hope, not one of despair. I see the opposite argument as one promulgating despair, hence the rationalizations such believers concoct in order to pretend that they are saved. Sorry to put it that way.
Believe it or not. I seek the truth, and that begins with understanding. The Jews did not believe in any kind of afterlife at all, at least not until some were corrupted by the beliefs of the Babylonians. Truth can come only from understanding the full cultural context and proper translation of the original language.
Despite what the descendants of the tyranny of the medieval Roman church (said as an enlightened former strict Catholic) may retain out of that tradition, the message of Jesus was a mind blower. Be right with God, be right with your neighbor, and eternal life is yours! A message so powerful that a minor Jewish sect grew into arguably the most influential force in history!
Someone else pointed this out (I do not recall if it was in this thread or another) that since the Jews did not believe in hell, it is not unreasonable to believe that Jesus did not either. He mentions aionios kolasan and it is the meaning of that phrase that is the crux of the argument. I believe the hellfire and damnation argument is a false belief, based upon distorted theology.
Where do you get the understanding that Jews do not believe in Olam-Ha-Ba (the world to come)? What do you think the saying "he was gathered to his people" means (in reference to death), in Genesis and many other OT texts? Also, if Jesus did not believe in afterlife, then what is all this afterlife "pruning" all about, and for what reason?
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