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I understand that God has to be opposed in order to be made manifest, however, I do not confuse that with God's purity of heart and intentions. I think many people attribute evil intents to God and in so doing they misunderstand him and do not know his voice. I know that God's voice will not lead me to do evil or vile and selfish acts so that good may come, for example, those who kill abortion doctors or kill people who they deem "ungodly" think they are doing God's will, but they are deceived. And also, just because every person has the power to take a gun and snuff my life out in an instant doesn't mean it ever entered God's heart. So we have to understand that God really IS GOOD. God really IS LOVE. I don't think a person can really know that while at the same time believing that God intends to torture people forever and ever without end because they were "lost", etc... The two things cannot cleave together.
Heartsong, I don't believe that God is tempting me to commit sin either but I do believe that He directs and allows for situations that will teach me to turn away from sin. He does not want me to sin, that is not His intention. He is developing a people who will be lights in a world of darkness. His intention is to teach me to turn away from sin, to learn to hate sin, to be an overcomer. That is the goal. We cannot learn to hate sin and learn to be overcomers, though, without situations where this will be developed.
So we have to understand that God really IS GOOD. God really IS LOVE. I don't think a person can really know that while at the same time believing that God intends to torture people forever and ever without end because they were "lost", etc... The two things cannot cleave together.
I think God is truly pure, not just because of his position in the Universe as Creator, but PURE in the sense of having a PURE HEART - no ill or evil INTENTIONS. If I did not believe that, I would not worship God in Spirit and Truth, and many do not believe that. Many think God is a domineering bad boy type who likes to throw his weight around and enjoys terrifying people. That to me is the epitome of blasphemy. That is why people who really do believe God is a bad-boy who loves to wield his power over everyone will not change their minds - they have decided to believe a lie and they are trapped by having done so into carrying out that false image (the image of the beast) in the world. They have "worshiped the beast" so to speak and believed the lie. And the only remedy for them is fire.
Amen. Evil is Evil no matter WHO does it . . . and Evil is always DONE by the Will of someone. There is no Will-less Evil . . . just bad outcomes. God does NO Evil because God does NOT Will Evil. Evil exists because of what humans Will. God establishes the environment and constraints on our ability to exercise our Will by His physical and spiritual laws. Tje consequences of those laws determine outcomes.
I understand that God has to be opposed in order to be made manifest, however, I do not confuse that with God's purity of heart and intentions. I think many people attribute evil intents to God and in so doing they misunderstand him and do not know his voice. I know that God's voice will not lead me to do evil or vile and selfish acts so that good may come, for example, those who kill abortion doctors or kill people who they deem "ungodly" think they are doing God's will, but they are deceived. And also, just because every person has the power to take a gun and snuff my life out in an instant doesn't mean it ever entered God's heart. So we have to understand that God really IS GOOD. God really IS LOVE. I don't think a person can really know that while at the same time believing that God intends to torture people forever and ever without end because they were "lost", etc... The two things cannot cleave together.
Another excellent post, Heartsong. The Holy Spirit is moving you to witness so powerfully of God's love and the misunderstanding so many have about Him and His involvement in our lives.
As this topic seems to be winding down after 78 pages I thought I would give the readers who have not participated a different view of some of the scripture those who maintain the pagan view of Plato as the true Gospel have used in their defence of it.I do this to show there is a scriptural answer to the scriptures they have used that is based on PURE LOVE.
Before I start I wanted to point out that Balaam would not curse Israel but did teach others that they could infiltrate and destroy Israel from within. This is the tactic the enemy always uses and he uses it very well. Augustine a great admirer of Plato incorporated Plato's views of God into Christianity and the enemy has been using Plato's view to undermine the true Gospel from within ever since.
Isaiah 45:7
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
The enemy uses this scripture to tell us that God creates good and evil. But does it really say that?
The word create first and foremost is a word of division and means cut down or cut out.
So that scripture should have been translated.
I form the light, and cut down darkness: I make peace, and cut down evil: I the LORD do all these things.
David said create in me a clean heart. We know that this is in reference to the circumcision of the heart, which is the cutting away of the foreskin.
God creates by way of His word.
His word is a double edged sword used for division.
Thus we can see because God creates by His word, and His word is a double edged sword used for division, that the translation I gave is in keeping with the WORD of God. Thus we can see that God did NOT create evil, but in fact cut down the evil.
Another scripture the enemy uses to say God does evil is John 9:1-3.
And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. 2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
This scripture contains what is known as a hina clause
A Hina can be translated as a purpose or a command.
If you use a command clause for hina in that scripture it changes the meaning.
Translation are suppose to be made in connection with the surrounding scriptures not on the basis of a bias towards what one believes.
When we take in the surrounding scriptures it is clear that hina here should have been translated as a command and not a purpose.
The Jews had just finished saying Jesus had a devil. Then we see the disciples asking Jesus why the man was born blind. Did he sin or did his parents sin? Jesus answered and said neither.
That neither was the answer to their question.
What then transpired was Jesus giving a command that the works of God be displayed through the healing of the blind man.
It should have been translated something like this
And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. 2And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 3Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents:Let the works of God be made manifest in him.
Jesus then goes on to say
I must work the works of him that sent me
What is the purpose for Jesus coming? It was so that He might destroy the works of the devil.
Now remember the Jews had just finished accusing Jesus of having a devil and if you read the rest of the story. Even though Jesus did the works of God (destroying the works of the devil i.e. The mans blindness) they refused to believe on Him.
Basically what Jesus was saying was neither this man or his parents sinned was the cause of the man blindness the devil was the cause of the mans blindness, now stand still and see the salvation of God. And He opened the eyes of the blind man.
Yet another scripture the enemy uses and perhaps the most damning is Romans 9:17-24. These scriptures are totally misunderstood and MUST be and can only be understood correctly by the surrounding scripture and those scriptures they point to. To do otherwise is to come away with an error in understanding, which error is according to Plato's pagan view of the workings of God.
Many read Romans 9 and come away with the idea that God foreknows everything from before creation and as God foreknows everything from before creation nothing can change what God foreknows, thus Gods foreknowledge is static (that is being from before creation)(Plato's pagan view of God omniscience), that God makes vessels of dishonour and vessels of honour and that there is no such thing as freewill.
These beliefs do not come to us from scripture; they come to us from philosophy. To be exact they come to us from the philosopher named Plato. Augustine incorporated Plato philosophy into Christianity and since the days of Augustine God's (static) foreknowledge has been taught as the status quo. Because of this teaching, Calvin came to believe that everyone born is predestined by God's foreknowledge to either heaven or hell so there is no such thing as freewill. The beliefs of these 3 men have led many astray from what the scriptures actually state.
So let us look at some scriptures and hopefully people will set aside their preconceived ideas and let the scriptures speak for themselves.
I am going to look at these scripture individually and collectively.
Individually
Romans 9:17-24
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
To understand what Paul is saying here we have to look at the potter and the clay. This is found in Jeremiah 18.
Jeremiah 18:1-6
The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2 Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. 3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
The Septuagint has verse 4 and the vessel which he was making with his handsfell:
So we see that the vessel God was making fell, so God picks up the clay and makes another vessel out of it.
Now read in Romans 9:21
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Now keep in mind that it is the SAME LUMP.
The vessel unto dishonour we are told in verse 22 is fitted to destruction.
What does it mean to be fitted to destruction?
Destruction is the Greek word apoleia, which is rooted in apollumi. Apollumi, as most Universalist knows is a corrective word or a word of correction. When God Apollumi’s someone God is correcting that person.
Fitted is the Greek word katartizo and means to make one as he ought to be made.
So when the scriptures state that the vessels of dishonour are fitted to destruction it is saying that the vessels of dishonour are made how they ought to be made through correction.
What is Gods aim for every vessel?
It is Gods aim that every vessel is made unto honour.
Now remember the vessel of dishonour and the vessel of honour are the SAME LUMP.
What these scriptures are telling us when we compare Paul with Jeremiah is that God will take man and remould and remould man as many times as it takes to make man into a vessel of honour. Out of the SAME LUMP a vessel of honour and a vessel of dishonour.
Collectively
Jeremiah 18:11-12 states
11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good. 12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.
Here we see God pronounces evil against Judah and Jerusalem and the people say there is no hope. They seemed to believe like many reading this that because God prophesied there doom and nothing can change Gods prophecy there was no hope for them so they might as well walk after their own devices. Doom was prophesied, doom must come.
However, is that what God wanted them to believe? Or was He showing them that prophesy can be changed through repentance.
Jeremiah 18:7-10
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
Here we can see few things.
Repentance changes Gods mind, thus a change in prophesy
Obedience changes Gods mind, thus a change in prophesy
Disobedience changes Gods mind, thus a change in prophesy
So how does Jeremiah apply to what Paul told us?
Romans 9 through 11 has to be taken as a whole. And the whole is all about election.
Paul summarizes everything he said in Romans 9 this way
Romans 9:30-33
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
This summery by Paul here he goes on to explain in Romans 11.
Romans 11 tells us that the Jews were broken off because of unbelief and the Gentiles were grafted in because of faith.
The Jews are vessels of dishonor through their unbelief; they are the vessels, which fell from the potter’s hand.
Jeremiah 18:10
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
The Gentiles are vessels of Honor by faith.
The Jews were hardened the Gentiles received mercy.
Ro.11:23
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Jeremiah 18:8
If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
The Jews are the vessels fitted to destruction because of their unbelief. They are the vessels who will be grafted back into the tree if they abide not in their unbelief. Thus, they are the vessels made as they ought to be made through correction, being grafted back in, vessels of honor.
Thank you for your powerful witness in these posts, pneuma . . . we are all blessed by them. God who IS love must be "well pleased" by them as well. The blinded minds from reading the OT under the veil of ancient ignorance are difficult to heal for we who are not Christ. Hardened hearts are like hardened missile sites . . . protected by thick walls of concrete (dogma). But we can have faith that Christ within each of us will eventually breach even the most hardened hearts to reveal the truth that God has written there. God bless you, brother.
Why is it when God speaks of His judgments in fire in the NT you guys all believe it to be a spiritual fire and not a literal fire, yet when you read of Gods judgments in the OT you take them as being literal?
I don’t take “fire” literally in the OT or NT Scott. Fire in both OT and NT symbolizes either judgment of sin (reaping what we sow) or trial of the righteous as in Job’s case. Both take place in the physical realm but their affect is spiritual.
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Bob it all depend on which perspective you are coming from. You see Job as being literal I do not. I see Job as being spiritual, you see the letter, I see the spirit.
“Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered.” Christ’s suffering was physical and mental. Learning of obedience was spiritual. Both actually occurred so both are literal. My point is that the physical and spiritual are both in that verse. They are interrelated.
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Bob if Job thought that then why in the world did he repent of what he thought about God?
True. Job was in error too. But God said he was more right than his accusers.
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Hmmm. That is the same as saying if Paul was in agreement with Jobs 3 friends. But then that would mean either Paul was in error just like Jobs 3 friends or that Paul was correct which makes Jobs 3 friend correct.
Where did Paul agree with Job’s accusers?
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What! So You get to pick and choose what is literal and what is spiritual?
Do you believe Jesus actually existed as a man and died? If so then you take some things literally too.
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If read literally Bob it most surely does say God was enticed to destroy Job without cause. That scripture is past tense Bob meaning it had already happened. If you have read the thread you will see I have already addressed this with Brian.
Yes it already happened. But what happened already?
1. Satan enticed/incited/urged God to destroy Job without cause. That is something Satan did. Not God.
2. Did God destroy Job? Yes, partly.
3. Did God destroy Job without cause? No. God does not act without cause.
Read Deuteronomy 13:6-8. A person can be enticed to do something without doing it. If that happens today then tomorrow it will be a past event.
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I never said anything like that Bob all I did was point out that the reading is slightly different. Is it my fault they are different?
Sorry. To me a "take" sounds like man's opinion. Anyway... since both passages are true then Jesus was led by the Spirit of God to be tempted by Satan. The other passage does not contradict that.
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Natural disasters are just that Bob natural disasters. You can believe God speaks to people through the strong winds and earthquakes in you want to Bob, but scripture tells me God is NOT in the strong wind or in the earthquakes, but in the still small voice.
You referred me to posts 52,69,121 regarding the falling sparrow. Those posts say “The reason there is so much evil and sin and death in this world is because God's children wont get off the couch long enough to follow Jesus example.” So that was your answer regarding the falling sparrow.
For the baby sparrow that falls it is a natural disaster. The wind blows... he falls to the ground. So I asked: How does the body of Christ being lazy kill the sparrow or the baby in the tsunami? If it's not the fault of the body of Christ being lazy then why does God not save the baby?
My bottom-line question is this: Why does God allow the baby to die in the tsunami since that cannot happen “without the Father”.
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Yes He is Bob, God said He wanted to draw Jerusalem under His wing but could not because the people would not have it. Thus they limited God from doing what He wanted to do.
Until Gods people get off of their couches and do what God is telling them to do the world will stay in the same mess it is in. God gave us dominion, we made the mess, and God will use us to clean the mess up.
God is moving by His Spirit over this chaotic mess, and He wants you and me, by His Spirit to bring in the harvest. The harvest is READY, but the LABOURERS are few.
Meanwhile babies are dying in tsunamis. Why?
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You don't have to read Plato Bob, as Plato's view of Gods omniscience has been preached from the time of Augustine. And as I have shown a number of time Plato's view is incorrect. And as Plato's view is incorrect all that stems from that view is incorrect.
But I'm not basing my views on preaching either.
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And I have no problem with suffering Bob, the old man definitely suffers the birth pain of the new mans birth.
Jesus was our example to follow. Didn't He suffer in mental, physical, and literal ways? What about Paul?
Hi Heartsong, my belief is that people cannot seem to realize that God's intentions are good and that evil is just a temporary tool in the creation that God uses to bring about His purposes. If evil is not a part of the plan, then He would not allow it to operate within His own creation. Everything belongs to Him. The scriptures reveal that God uses satan according to His purposes. There is nothing about being a bad boy in the character of God. He is Sovereign though and He will subject all to Himself so that He may be all in all. (1 Cor. 15) God bless and peace.
Amen Shana.
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God uses satan for His purposes
