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Old 03-19-2013, 11:39 AM
Status: "Build the damn wall!" (set 12 days ago)
 
Location: The Haunted Mansion
15,203 posts, read 8,247,063 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
There has always been a line of people who need the assurance of rules to live by where Christians have the freedom to find how best to express the love they have for God and His creation. The "New Covenant" has a "New Commandment." No wonder Paul was amazed at the people who wanted to go back under law.

Rules can be a convenient guide to appropriate behavior, but there is no rule in the NT that is binding as a law on Christians. This is what Paul was saying when he said that for him all things were lawful, but not all things were expedient or uplifting.

Often when I try to explain this to people they say something like, "You mean there is no law against murder?" And I have to say, "No, you are perfectly free to murder anyone you can murder in love."
Well said!
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Old 03-19-2013, 11:57 AM
Zur
 
949 posts, read 623,090 times
Reputation: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
There has always been a line of people who need the assurance of rules to live by where Christians have the freedom to find how best to express the love they have for God and His creation. The "New Covenant" has a "New Commandment." No wonder Paul was amazed at the people who wanted to go back under law.

Rules can be a convenient guide to appropriate behavior, but there is no rule in the NT that is binding as a law on Christians. This is what Paul was saying when he said that for him all things were lawful, but not all things were expedient or uplifting.

Often when I try to explain this to people they say something like, "You mean there is no law against murder?" And I have to say, "No, you are perfectly free to murder anyone you can murder in love."
You can fool yourself, but please do not fool others
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Old 03-19-2013, 11:57 AM
 
373 posts, read 310,855 times
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(Matt 22:37) And Jesus said to him, Thou shall love Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind.

(Matt 22:38) This is the first and great commandment.

(Matt 22:39) And the second is like it, Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself.

(Matt 22:40) On these two commandments hang all the law, and the prophets.
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Old 03-19-2013, 12:01 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
15,557 posts, read 7,016,415 times
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Originally Posted by SAAN View Post

There has to be some sort of law, otherwise there is no sin.
There is: "That you love one another even as I have loved you." Interesting notes on that when we also have "to him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin."

As for how to love your fellow man, I think "agape" is best translated as having concern for the well-being of the person(s) loved.

Following Torah may be a good guide to forms of expression, but in the end, all it is is forms.
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Old 03-19-2013, 12:01 PM
 
Location: Caribbean
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I believe in keeping God's commandments out of love and belief in Him. See John 14:15. Additionally, Paul does not advocate doing away with the laws of God either. He simply points out the law cannot save us but rather that it is the grace of God through faith that assures us salvation.

Romans 3:31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

The purpose of the law is to point out sin, to show us what is wrong in the eyes of God. And as the verses state, all will not be fulfilled until heaven and earth pass away. So God's law (not the law of moses/ordinances - see Colossians 2) is very much valid in my understanding, but it is grace through faith by which we receive the gift of salvation.

Last edited by ReineDeCoeur; 03-19-2013 at 12:09 PM..
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Old 03-19-2013, 12:04 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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Originally Posted by Zur View Post
You can fool yourself, but please do not fool others
I could be wrong, what did Paul mean by saying that "all things are lawful"
Why did Augustine conclude that we should love God and do what we please?
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Old 03-19-2013, 12:16 PM
Zur
 
949 posts, read 623,090 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAAN View Post
I was talking about this yesterday with a couple of people and they did ask a good question.

How do we Love God?
How do we love one another/Love they neighbor?

Their response was by doing Torah is he answer to those 2 questions.
I agree to an extent since there has to be some guideline to follow and disagree many OT laws impossible to do since there is no temple now and he cermonial and sacrificial laws are done away with.

Like it or not, we Christians still do follow many of the OT laws. None of us would have sex with your boyfriend/girlfriend and their mother/father at the same time, have sex with your cousin, have sex with a woman on their period, or an animal as this goes against the laws of sexual morality.

As for the dietary laws, of the 30+ unclean listed foods, Christians do follow those guidelines, outside of pork/shellfish/catfish and maybe 1-2 others.

There has to be some sort of law, otherwise there is no sin.
Do you think to have sex with your boyfriend/girlfriend is not a sin? What is the difference to the others. The law shows you what sin is. But as Christians we are not under the law of Moses, but the laws of the NT are to be kept. If we do not forgive from our heart, we are not forgiven. If we do not confess our sins, God is not forgiving us and cleanses us from all unrightousness. Salvation is a gift without works, the OT did not have. But to remain in Christ we have to love God and our neighbor. In the OT a sinner was stoned of 2 or 3 witnesses. In the NT he can repent and be cleansed by the blood of the lamb.
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Old 03-19-2013, 12:55 PM
Zur
 
949 posts, read 623,090 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
I could be wrong, what did Paul mean by saying that "all things are lawful"
Why did Augustine conclude that we should love God and do what we please?
We cannot follow Augustin, the bible says, who follows man (flesch) is cursed, we cannot even follow our own understanding, it is also cursed. There is no other authority than the word of God, otherwise we cannot stand in the judgement seat of Christ.
Paul says that all things are lawful unto him (1. Cor 6:12+10:23). He says in 1. Cor 9:21 that he is not without law to God, but under the law of Christ, as a pharesee he knows to handle the law. He is a Jew to the Jew by the law of Moses and a Gentile to the Gentiles without the law. "All things that are lawful" for us Paul clearifies in Rom 2:12 :"For as many have sinned without law shall also perish without law". This verse you quoted is not a licence for sin!
God bless!
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Old 03-19-2013, 01:00 PM
Zur
 
949 posts, read 623,090 times
Reputation: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
There has always been a line of people who need the assurance of rules to live by where Christians have the freedom to find how best to express the love they have for God and His creation. The "New Covenant" has a "New Commandment." No wonder Paul was amazed at the people who wanted to go back under law.

Rules can be a convenient guide to appropriate behavior, but there is no rule in the NT that is binding as a law on Christians. This is what Paul was saying when he said that for him all things were lawful, but not all things were expedient or uplifting.

Often when I try to explain this to people they say something like, "You mean there is no law against murder?" And I have to say, "No, you are perfectly free to murder anyone you can murder in love."
You can fool yourself, but please do not fool others
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Old 03-19-2013, 01:21 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
15,557 posts, read 7,016,415 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zur View Post
We cannot follow Augustin, the bible says, who follows man (flesch) is cursed, we cannot even follow our own understanding, it is also cursed. There is no other authority than the word of God, otherwise we cannot stand in the judgement seat of Christ.
Paul says that all things are lawful unto him (1. Cor 6:12+10:23). He says in 1. Cor 9:21 that he is not without law to God, but under the law of Christ, as a pharesee he knows to handle the law. He is a Jew to the Jew by the law of Moses and a Gentile to the Gentiles without the law. "All things that are lawful" for us Paul clearifies in Rom 2:12 :"For as many have sinned without law shall also perish without law". This verse you quoted is not a licence for sin!
God bless!
I am not following Augustine, I am merely pointing out that he also reached the obvious conclusion. I'm sorry, but your "explanation" in the second paragraph did not make a lick of sense to me. Can you go over it point by point with maybe some illustration?

No, the verse I quoted is not a license for sin, it is an explanation that law is not the basis for relating to God or our fellow man. Yes, there are some who don't understand the application and much of Paul'[s discourse to the Corinthians addresses that failure to understand and the license some thought it gave them. There IS a very real basis for relation as I have said before; it is always about concern for the well-being of all parties involved. The spirit all followers of Christ should have.
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