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Old 01-17-2013, 11:01 PM
 
3,259 posts, read 5,095,370 times
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Hebrews 1:6

"And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him."

From cover to cover in the Bible, you will find a multitude of verses that enforce that God shares His glory and worship with no one. Only He can receive it. This verse can't be any plainer. God the Father commands His angels to worship Jesus Christ. God is sovereign, holy, and righteous and would never command His angels to worship anything except...God. Straightforward, unless you are a Jehovah's Witness. Their NWT changes the word "worship" to "obeisance". In fact, everywhere in their translation, they translate the Greek word to obeisance when it is in reference to Jesus Christ; however, when it refers to God, false gods, and even Satan, it is translated as worship. Makes one go hummmmm?
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Old 01-17-2013, 11:15 PM
 
37,472 posts, read 25,217,301 times
Reputation: 5851
Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd View Post
Hebrews 1:6

"And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him."

From cover to cover in the Bible, you will find a multitude of verses that enforce that God shares His glory and worship with no one. Only He can receive it. This verse can't be any plainer. God the Father commands His angels to worship Jesus Christ. God is sovereign, holy, and righteous and would never command His angels to worship anything except...God. Straightforward, unless you are a Jehovah's Witness. Their NWT changes the word "worship" to "obeisance". In fact, everywhere in their translation, they translate the Greek word to obeisance when it is in reference to Jesus Christ; however, when it refers to God, false gods, and even Satan, it is translated as worship. Makes one go hummmmm?
This is only confusing if you retain the mistaken notion that worship is FOR God. It has nothing to do with God because God needs NOTHING from us or anyone else. He is complete. Worship is for the worshiper. It facilitates the proper state of mind within the worshiper. That is why obeisance could be a reasonable interpretation. Worship is NOT for God. We can not add to God's glory by worship. God's glory can not be added to. Only human hubris and arrogance would think that anything we do could ever add to God's glory.

Last edited by MysticPhD; 01-17-2013 at 11:49 PM..
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Old 01-17-2013, 11:31 PM
 
Location: US
26,244 posts, read 13,909,589 times
Reputation: 1591
Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd View Post
Hebrews 1:6

"And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him."

From cover to cover in the Bible, you will find a multitude of verses that enforce that God shares His glory and worship with no one. Only He can receive it. This verse can't be any plainer. God the Father commands His angels to worship Jesus Christ. God is sovereign, holy, and righteous and would never command His angels to worship anything except...God. Straightforward, unless you are a Jehovah's Witness. Their NWT changes the word "worship" to "obeisance". In fact, everywhere in their translation, they translate the Greek word to obeisance when it is in reference to Jesus Christ; however, when it refers to God, false gods, and even Satan, it is translated as worship. Makes one go hummmmm?
Do you know what the word 'Worship' means?...


wor新hip
[wur-ship] Show IPA noun, verb, wor新hiped, wor新hip搏ng or ( especially British ) wor新hipped, wor新hip搆ing.
noun
1.
reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.
2.
formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning.
3.
adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success.
4.
the object of adoring reverence or regard.
5.
( initial capital letter ) British . a title of honor used in addressing or mentioning certain magistrates and others of high rank or station (usually preceded by Your, His, or Her ).
verb (used with object)
6.
to render religious reverence and homage to.
7.
to feel an adoring reverence or regard for (any person or thing).

Of course HaShem would command the Angels to worship Him, for Yeshua was His first-begotten of ALL creation...And He did not command them to worship Him as God, He just commanded them to worship Him or Honor or regard or respect Him...

Last edited by Richard1965; 01-17-2013 at 11:41 PM..
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Old 01-18-2013, 12:15 AM
 
3,259 posts, read 5,095,370 times
Reputation: 1470
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Do you know what the word 'Worship' means?...


wor新hip
[wur-ship] Show IPA noun, verb, wor新hiped, wor新hip搏ng or ( especially British ) wor新hipped, wor新hip搆ing.
noun
1.
reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.
2.
formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning.
3.
adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success.
4.
the object of adoring reverence or regard.
5.
( initial capital letter ) British . a title of honor used in addressing or mentioning certain magistrates and others of high rank or station (usually preceded by Your, His, or Her ).
verb (used with object)
6.
to render religious reverence and homage to.
7.
to feel an adoring reverence or regard for (any person or thing).

Of course HaShem would command the Angels to worship Him, for Yeshua was His first-begotten of ALL creation...And He did not command them to worship Him as God, He just commanded them to worship Him or Honor or regard or respect Him...
I know that the same Greek word used to worship God is the same word used here to worship JEsus, and that's my point. I can't believe you would ask me do I know what the word worship means. RICHARD, its the same Greek Word, and the NWT wants to render it less to support their teachings that only God is worthy of true worship where Jesus is to be given obeisance. No matter how you spell it or word it in English. It's the same Greek word that you can't make it mean one thing in one verse, and another in another verse when it clearly means definition 1 in your list.
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Old 01-18-2013, 01:52 AM
 
Location: US
26,244 posts, read 13,909,589 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd View Post
I know that the same Greek word used to worship God is the same word used here to worship JEsus, and that's my point. I can't believe you would ask me do I know what the word worship means. RICHARD, its the same Greek Word, and the NWT wants to render it less to support their teachings that only God is worthy of true worship where Jesus is to be given obeisance. No matter how you spell it or word it in English. It's the same Greek word that you can't make it mean one thing in one verse, and another in another verse when it clearly means definition 1 in your list.
The fact is that worship means:


H7812
שׁחה
shâchâh
shaw-khaw'
A primitive root; to depress, that is, prostrate (especially reflexively in homage to royalty or God): - bow (self) down, crouch, fall down (flat), humbly beseech, do (make) obeisance, do reverence, make to stoop, worship.

G4352
προσκυνέω
proskuneō
pros-koo-neh'-o
From G4314 and probably a derivative of G2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his masters hand); to fawn or crouch to, that is, (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore): - worship.

One must understand the sense of the word in order to understand it's context within a passage...

Have you ever been a manger with a team lead or supervisor and told the team, 'when the lead speaks it is the same as if I was speaking'?...'You will give the lead the same respect as you give to me'?...Read the parable of the Landlord and tenants...
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Old 01-18-2013, 11:44 PM
 
3,259 posts, read 5,095,370 times
Reputation: 1470
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
The fact is that worship means:


H7812
שׁחה
shâchâh
shaw-khaw'
A primitive root; to depress, that is, prostrate (especially reflexively in homage to royalty or God): - bow (self) down, crouch, fall down (flat), humbly beseech, do (make) obeisance, do reverence, make to stoop, worship.

G4352
προσκυνέω
proskuneō
pros-koo-neh'-o
From G4314 and probably a derivative of G2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his masters hand); to fawn or crouch to, that is, (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore): - worship.

One must understand the sense of the word in order to understand it's context within a passage...

Have you ever been a manger with a team lead or supervisor and told the team, 'when the lead speaks it is the same as if I was speaking'?...'You will give the lead the same respect as you give to me'?...Read the parable of the Landlord and tenants...
Using your reasoning, then my point becomes even stronger. The angels are to make obeisance to Jesus in heaven. Jesus name means God is salvation. Emmanuel is another name that Jesus is called and it means God is with us. My point is this, if even the angels are to bow down before Jesus, then his status is more than a mere created creature.
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Old 01-19-2013, 08:43 AM
 
Location: US
26,244 posts, read 13,909,589 times
Reputation: 1591
Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd View Post
Using your reasoning, then my point becomes even stronger. The angels are to make obeisance to Jesus in heaven. Jesus name means God is salvation. Emmanuel is another name that Jesus is called and it means God is with us. My point is this, if even the angels are to bow down before Jesus, then his status is more than a mere created creature.
Without a doubt, however, He is above the Angels, but, below the Father...It was the the Father that bestowed this honour on Him, it is not something that He took...As was all authority given to Him by His Father, He did not usurp it, as the example of the Parable of the Landlord and tenants implies...He sent his son, in his own name, giving all the authority that he himself had in the matter to his own son to reconcile the issues with the Tenants, and what did the Tenants do to the son?...
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Old 01-19-2013, 09:39 AM
 
Location: Oxford, England
1,266 posts, read 949,558 times
Reputation: 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd View Post
Hebrews 1:6

"And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him."

From cover to cover in the Bible, you will find a multitude of verses that enforce that God shares His glory and worship with no one. Only He can receive it. This verse can't be any plainer. God the Father commands His angels to worship Jesus Christ. God is sovereign, holy, and righteous and would never command His angels to worship anything except...God. Straightforward, unless you are a Jehovah's Witness. Their NWT changes the word "worship" to "obeisance". In fact, everywhere in their translation, they translate the Greek word to obeisance when it is in reference to Jesus Christ; however, when it refers to God, false gods, and even Satan, it is translated as worship. Makes one go hummmmm?
A few interesting notes here. This is a quotation of a portion of the Greek translation of Deut 32:43. If you go look at your translation of Deut 32:43 you will not find anything like this in there. The reason is that the Masoretic Text didn't like what it said and took it out. The text was originally a portion of the Song of Moses where the singers call upon the gods to worship YHWH. The earliest form is preserved in a Dead Sea Scroll manuscript, 4QDeut-q:



This is the relevant line, and it clearly states "let all the gods worship him." This is the version of the text quoted by Ps 97:7. The Greek translators of Deut 32 were a little hesitant to refer directly and non-polemically to "the gods." They had already changed Deut 32:8 from "according to the number of the sons of God" to "according to the number of the angels of God," but it appears our Greek translators had two different versions in front of him, and he just included them both. For that reason, if you look in your Septuagint, you will find this:

Quote:
Rejoice, O heavens, with him, and let all the sons of God worship him! Be glad, O nations, with his people, and let all the angels of God prevail with him.
Some Septuagint manuscripts reverse the order, having the angels worship God, and the sons of God prevail for him. It is from one of these Septuagint manuscripts that the author of Hebrews drew his quotation. The pseudepigraphical Odes of Solomon do the same. You'll find the Septuagint translators were elsewhere reluctant to refer directly to the gods, and so in several places "gods" or "sons of God" were rendered "angels," or "angels of God." This was the result of an ontological restructuring of the heavens that took place in the Greco-Roman period. I presented a paper at SBL a few years ago dealing directly with this question (see here).

The author of Hebrews was happy to take a few of these references to gods and YHWH and reinterpret them as references to Jesus. For instance, Heb 2:7 quotes Ps 8:5 (6 in the Hebrew), and again has the original "gods" ("a little lower than the gods" [אלהים]) changed to "angels" ("a little lower than the angels" [αγγελους]), and has the original reference to humanity in general changed to refer exclusively to Jesus. See how dynamic the New Testament's use of the Hebrew Bible is!
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Old 01-19-2013, 09:48 AM
 
Location: Oxford, England
1,266 posts, read 949,558 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd View Post
I know that the same Greek word used to worship God is the same word used here to worship JEsus, and that's my point.
It's also the same word used in Rev 3:9 when Jesus insists that the wicked will ultimately come and worship the believers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd View Post
I can't believe you would ask me do I know what the word worship means. RICHARD, its the same Greek Word, and the NWT wants to render it less to support their teachings that only God is worthy of true worship where Jesus is to be given obeisance. No matter how you spell it or word it in English. It's the same Greek word that you can't make it mean one thing in one verse, and another in another verse when it clearly means definition 1 in your list.
A fairly decent book on the early Christian worship of Jesus is Jimmy Dunn, Did the First Christians Worship Jesus? Dunn points out that there is a distinct difference in the worship vernacular used in reference to God, and that used in reference to Jesus. While proskynesis is used to refer to obeisance to both (and to others), the Greek latreuein, "to offer cultic devotion," is never used in reference to Jesus. Only to God.
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Old 01-19-2013, 09:59 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 3,991,179 times
Reputation: 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd View Post
Hebrews 1:6

"And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him."

From cover to cover in the Bible, you will find a multitude of verses that enforce that God shares His glory and worship with no one. Only He can receive it. This verse can't be any plainer. God the Father commands His angels to worship Jesus Christ. God is sovereign, holy, and righteous and would never command His angels to worship anything except...God. Straightforward, unless you are a Jehovah's Witness. Their NWT changes the word "worship" to "obeisance". In fact, everywhere in their translation, they translate the Greek word to obeisance when it is in reference to Jesus Christ; however, when it refers to God, false gods, and even Satan, it is translated as worship. Makes one go hummmmm?

That is NOT what the scripture proclaim at all.


Isaiah 42:8
8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

But that is NOT what that scripture is saying, read it in context.

Isaiah 42:5-13
5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee,and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. 9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. 10 Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof. 11 Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains. 12 Let them give glory unto the LORD, and declare his praise in the islands.
13 The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies.

The Father is NOT saying He will keep His glory unto Himself, the Father IS saying that He will only give His glory unto Christ and NO OTHER. For is it not Christ who is the light of the Gentiles?, is it Not Christ who delivers out of the prison houses? is it not Christ who opens the eyes of the blind?

Christ is a many membered body so all members of the body of Christ will have the Glory of God.
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