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I ask this question primarily for the people who have the view that Jesus was created first and then everything else was created by God through Jesus. I need to know which Scriptures suggest, hint or even directly teach that Jesus was created?
there is no verse that suggests it. In fact, though...Jesus himself said he was the Alpha and Omega...beginning and the end. He is God.
I was thinking the same thing Vizio. I can't find any where in the bible , except Col 1:15 that says Jesus is the Firstborn of Creation (meaning his position or preemminence over creation when you read the entire chapter in context), that says that Jesus was created first then God created everything through him.
I was thinking the same thing Vizio. I can't find any where in the bible , except Col 1:15 that says Jesus is the Firstborn of Creation (meaning his position or preemminence over creation when you read the entire chapter in context), that says that Jesus was created first then God created everything through him.
Read on in that chapter, and the next and it's very clear that he isn't the first created...but he is God.
I was thinking the same thing Vizio. I can't find any where in the bible , except Col 1:15 that says Jesus is the Firstborn of Creation (meaning his position or preemminence over creation when you read the entire chapter in context), that says that Jesus was created first then God created everything through him.
RESPONSE:
This reasoning is claimed by those attempting to prove that Jesus was eternal. While it is true that the word can have two meaning; actually the first born or the most preeminent, in this case, it is clear that the firstborn means actually the first born of all creation Not the first born of the rest of creation.
Col 1
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;16for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him.17He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Paul was a Greek Jew and would have been familiar with thr concept of the Demiurge- the creator lesser god.
[From Wikipedia] "The philosophical usage and the proper noun derive from Plato's Timaeus, written c. 360 BC, in which the demiurge is presented as thecreator of the universe. This is accordingly the definition of the demiurge in the Platonic (c. 310 BC-90 BC) and Middle Platonic (c. 90 BC-300 AD) philosophical traditions. In the various branches of the Neoplatonic school (third century onwards), the demiurge is the fashioner of the real, perceptible world after the model of the Ideas, but (in most neoplatonic systems) is still not itself "the One".
Last edited by ancient warrior; 01-21-2013 at 08:37 PM..
Reason: drop SIZEs
That reasoning is claimed by those attempting to prove that Jesus was eternal. While it is true that the word can have two meaning; actually the first born or the most preeminent, in this case, it is clear that the firstborn means actually the first born of all creation not the most preeminent because that is exactly what it says. Not the first born of the rest of creation.
Col 1
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;16for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him.17He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Paul was a Greek Jew and would have been familiar with thr concept of the Demiurge- the creator lesser god.
yet...he goes on in chapter 2 and states that he is God Himself.
yet...he goes on in chapter 2 and states that he is God Himself.
I agree with you when you read on Jesus is also the Firstborn among the dead. So we clearly see that Firstborn doesn't mean that He was first created or born by God then the rest of creation came into existence afterwards.
I ask this question primarily for the people who have the view that Jesus was created first and then everything else was created by God through Jesus. I need to know which Scriptures suggest, hint or even directly teach that Jesus was created?
In addition to the text already cited, Rev 3:14 also describes Jesus as "the beginning of the creation of God."
Quote:
ἡ ἀρχὴ τῆς κτίσεως τοῦ θεοῦ
Col 1:15 calls him the "firstborn of all creation":
Quote:
πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως
Taken together, the two phrases express the same idea with slightly different terminology (one of generic chronology and the other of genetic chronology): Jesus was the first product of God's creative endeavor. Jesus was created. There is nothing in any corner of the biblical text, or any text from the century following, that suggests Jesus was not created. Even the notion of Jesus' "begetting" requires a time when he was not. This was the norm until the second/third centuries CE, when Jesus was more and more closely linked with the ontology of God by Greco-Roman Christian apologists. In order to say Jesus was begotten without being created, and without actual genetic begetting, you have to insist that the term "begotten" is just a metaphor for something that has nothing whatsoever to do with begetting. It thus becomes a non-literal symbol for the doctrine of emanation, which was a middle-platonic ideology.
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