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Old 01-27-2013, 08:27 AM
 
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I'm not an expert in religion by any means so bare with me...I was wondering how can one burn in hell without flesh and body...

In one of the passages it states:

"The dead are unconscious, have no thoughts, no memories."

Yet in another passage it states:

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried. And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, "Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receiveth thy good tidings, and likewise Lazarus evil things: But now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.


How can the rich man be tormented if the dead have no conscious...
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Old 01-27-2013, 08:44 AM
 
19,952 posts, read 12,987,621 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.XXX View Post
I'm not an expert in religion by any means so bare with me...I was wondering how can one burn in hell without flesh and body...

In one of the passages it states:

"The dead are unconscious, have no thoughts, no memories."

Yet in another passage it states:

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried. And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, "Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receiveth thy good tidings, and likewise Lazarus evil things: But now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.


How can the rich man be tormented if the dead have no conscious...
That is Eccl 9:5. A few chapters later in 12:4 he says that there is a future judgment...so contextually we have to conclude he did not mean that they are annihilated. The context is the ability of the dead to plan, and do things. From the perspective of the living, they are unable to control their future. The previous verse is talking about hope--which the dead don't have. Their fate is sealed.
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Old 01-27-2013, 09:08 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,442,202 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.XXX View Post
I'm not an expert in religion by any means so bare with me...I was wondering how can one burn in hell without flesh and body...

In one of the passages it states:

"The dead are unconscious, have no thoughts, no memories."

Yet in another passage it states:

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried. And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, "Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receiveth thy good tidings, and likewise Lazarus evil things: But now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.


How can the rich man be tormented if the dead have no conscious...
That is actually an excellent question!

The parable of the Rich man and Lazarus is just that, a parable.
If one is to take it as what literally happens when one dies then one must take the parable just before it as to what occurs to one when they did: Do they really go to a pig farm to slop pigs? At the ending of that latter parable the son's father says "This my son was dead but now he lives." But it is just a parable. So, no, people don't really go to a Hell when they die nor to a place called "Abraham's bosom." And they surely don't go to "Heaven" for the sole reason of having evil in this life as Abraham, in a figure, tells the hearers of the parable and neither do people go to "hell" due to receiving the good things in this life. If this is the case everyone should move to an area at war and receive all the evil they can so they get a free ticket to heaven without a need for Christ's sacrifice.
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Old 01-27-2013, 01:10 PM
 
Location: Caribbean
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The dead are in fact unconscious. As Eusebius points out, the second is a parable.

Check out this site. It explains "hell" very well. Does Hell Burn Forever? | Hell Truth
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Old 01-27-2013, 01:34 PM
 
1,321 posts, read 1,006,163 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
That is Eccl 9:5. A few chapters later in 12:4 he says that there is a future judgment...so contextually we have to conclude he did not mean that they are annihilated. The context is the ability of the dead to plan, and do things. From the perspective of the living, they are unable to control their future. The previous verse is talking about hope--which the dead don't have. Their fate is sealed.
Also Heaven and Hell/eternal life weren't really known until Jesus came. It was at that time it was offered.

So the parable can be viewed as a prophecy for things to come....
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Old 01-27-2013, 01:47 PM
 
20,317 posts, read 15,665,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.XXX View Post
I'm not an expert in religion by any means so bare with me...I was wondering how can one burn in hell without flesh and body...

In one of the passages it states:

"The dead are unconscious, have no thoughts, no memories."

Yet in another passage it states:

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried. And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, "Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receiveth thy good tidings, and likewise Lazarus evil things: But now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.


How can the rich man be tormented if the dead have no conscious...
The first thing I want to say is that you need to be very careful about listening to what people say on a forum such as this. Many people who don't know what they are talking about would have you think that they are experts, but they steer you wrong. You should talk to a pastor who can give you accurate information.

Having said that, the Bible speaks of a temporary place of confinement for those who die without ever coming to Christ for salvation, and of a permanent place where they will spend the eternal future.

The temporary place is called Sheol in the Old Testament, and Hades in the New Testament. Before the resurrection of Jesus, everyone who died went to one of two compartments of Hades. The righteous went to the Paradise side of Hades (called Abraham's Bosom in Luke 16:22) while the unrighteous went and still go to the 'Torments' side of Hades (Luke 16:23). Now it is true that Luke 16:19-31 is a parable. A parable is a story told to illustrate a spiritual truth. Jesus did not tell a lie in order to illustrate a spiritual truth. He told a story which relates to an after death reality.

The place called Abraham's Bosom in the Parable was called 'Paradise' by Jesus when He promised the thief who had asked Him to remember him that he would be with Him in Paradise that day. Luke 23:43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." When Jesus died, His body went into the tomb, and His soul went to Paradise. And as promised, the thief also went to Paradise. The grave is not Paradise.

Since the resurrection and ascension of Jesus, all believers now go to heaven, and Paradise is now said to be in the third heaven. 2 Cor. 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a man was caught up to the third heaven. 3] And I know how such a man-- whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows, 4] was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

Since the resurrection and ascension of Jesus, Paradise is now in the third heaven, and is no longer one of the compartments of Hades, and the righteous who were in Hades were transfered to the third heaven. As well, every believer in Jesus Christ now goes to heaven when he dies.

But the unrighteous - those who die without receiving Christ as Savior still go to the 'Torments' side of Hades where they will remain until the end of the Millennium - the thousand year Millennial kingdom which will be established on the earth when Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation. At the end of the Millennium, all unbelievers will be resurrected. That is, their souls will come out of Hades and rejoin their resurrected bodies, and they will stand at the great white throne judgement and then be cast body and soul into the lake of fire where they will spend the eternal future.

Jesus said the following in Matthew 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna).

The first thing you need to notice about Matthew 10:28 is that Jesus said that man can kill the body but cannot kill the soul. This means that the soul survives the death of the body. In other words, the soul is immortal. The second thing to notice is that Jesus said that both soul and body can be destroyed in Gehenna which is a reference to the lake of fire (See Revelation 20:11-15). However, the word 'destroyed' does not mean cessation of existence, but rather of a condition of ruination and uselessness. The unrighteous (the unbeliever) will live forever in a lost state of ruination and uselessness, and misery in the lake of fire. The second half of Matthew 10:28 refers to the unrighteous being sent to the lake of fire after the great white throne judgement which takes place after the Millennium.

Thoughout human history, the unrighteous have always gone into the 'Torments' side of Sheol/Hades. At the end of the Millennium they will be resurrected (resurrection refers to the raising of the body which the soul rejoins). This is referred to in Revelation 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. The 'rest of the dead' is a parenthesis. The first resurrection refers to the resurrection of the just. The second resurrection while not mentioned as 'the second resurrection' is inferred by the fact that a 'first resurrection' is mentioned. This second resurrection will take place a thousand years after the first resurrection. Daniel 12:2 speaks of those who are resurrected to eternal life (life in the presence of God), and those who are resurrected to disgrace and everlasting contempt (those who will live separated from God by reason of having no relationship with God). "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:2 is a general statement and does not mention the thousand year difference between the two resurrections.

You alluded to Ecclesiastes 9:5.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.

You must realize that Solomon at this point in his life had turned away from God and was looking at life as a man 'under the sun' - as if he was an unbeliever. Was Solomon correct when he said that the dead no longer have a reward? The answer of course is no. Look at 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 and you will see that the believer is said to be evaluated for the purpose of reward at the Judgement seat of Christ. It is true however that the dead no longer have the opportunities that were available to them while they were alive.

Are the dead conscious of nothing at all? Take a look at Revelation 6:9-11 as an example.

Revelation 6:9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10] and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11] And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

This passage speaks of Tribulational martyrs who were slain because of their faith in Christ. They are in heaven. This is prior to their being resurrected. They want to know how much longer God will refrain from judging and avenging their blood on the earth dwellers. They are told to rest a little longer. Notice also that they are given white robes which may suggest that there is some kind of an interim body in heaven prior to receiving a resurrection body.

These people are seen by John as being very much alive even though they were martyed by the beast (the antichrist).

The Expositor's Bible Commentary states ... ' ''Under the altar'' sets the scene as occurring in the temple of heaven.' [Vol 12, pg. 475.]

The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament states ... 'Spirits without any substance could not wear robes. The fact that they will be given robes supports the concept that when believers die they are given temporary bodies in heaven which are later replaced by resurrection bodies at the time of the resurrection (cf. 20:4).' [pg. 948]

It is clear that these martyred Tribulational believers are in heaven and that they are conscious and aware.

Last edited by Mike555; 01-27-2013 at 02:51 PM..
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:16 PM
 
Location: Out of Florida........
4,309 posts, read 5,455,076 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.XXX View Post
I'm not an expert in religion by any means so bare with me...I was wondering how can one burn in hell without flesh and body...

In one of the passages it states:

"The dead are unconscious, have no thoughts, no memories."

Yet in another passage it states:

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried. And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, "Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receiveth thy good tidings, and likewise Lazarus evil things: But now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.


How can the rich man be tormented if the dead have no conscious...


Yes......it's real.
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:51 PM
 
Location: San Antonio
2,819 posts, read 2,768,855 times
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your question just opened a pandoras box. just watch how silly we are when we argue trying to prove our point. there are so many hell/no hell threads that it is sad. get ready for the ride.
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Old 01-28-2013, 01:22 PM
 
Location: Florida
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From the link posted above - the topic deserves serious thought and study:

A Burning Controversy | Hell Truth
The topic of hell has raged through the ages, and the controversy is far from settled even within Christian circles. A Christian author and pastor named Rob Bell wrote the following in his book Love Wins: “It's been clearly communicated to many that this belief (in hell as conscious, eternal torment) is a central truth of the Christian faith and to reject it is, in essence, to reject Jesus. This is misguided and toxic and ultimately subverts the contagious spread of Jesus' message of love, peace, forgiveness and joy that our world desperately needs to hear.” His message has been received with joy and anger alike. But while he rejects the most common understanding of hell, he doesn’t firmly adhere to a different one. He welcomes questioning and uncertainty on the matter.
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Old 01-28-2013, 01:52 PM
 
Location: San Antonio
2,819 posts, read 2,768,855 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.XXX View Post
I'm not an expert in religion ...
that is a good thing XXX. the more theological schooling you get, the stupider you become. dont ever become an expert in religion. Those folks got everything figured out. I rather keep seeking God that some initials after my last name.
PS: the pharisees where experts and they were condemned by Jesus more than the prostitute.
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