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References? John the Revelator saw a Lamb as though it had been slain... (Rev 5:6)
Rev. 5 v 6 would be in reference to John the Baptizer referring to Jesus as the Lamb of God....
[ Isaiah 53 v 7; Rev. 14 v 1 ] and Jesus 'was' [past tense] the sacrificial lamb of God.
As far as references to Jesus using or 'putting on', so to speak, materialized bodies please notice Luke [24 vs 15- 18 ]where his followers thought Jesus was a visiting stranger in Jerusalem.
The Mary of John [20 vs 14,15 ] did not recognize Jesus but she mistook Jesus for the gardener
Jesus showed himself again [John 21 v 1 ] and this time also his disciples did Not recognize the resurrected, but still on earth Jesus at verses 4, 12.
The resurrected Jesus did not ascend to heaven until 40 days after his resurrection.- Acts 1 v 9
John wrote Revelation decades after the resurrected in the spirit Jesus ascended to heaven.
Rev. 5 v 6 would be in reference to John the Baptizer referring to Jesus as the Lamb of God....
So you're saying the host of heaven doesn't see him as the Lamb of God? He's sitting on the Mercy Seat for crying out loud...
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Originally Posted by Matthew 4:4
As far as references to Jesus using or 'putting on', so to speak, materialized bodies please notice Luke [24 vs 15- 18 ]where his followers thought Jesus was a visiting stranger in Jerusalem.
The Mary of John [20 vs 14,15 ] did not recognize Jesus but she mistook Jesus for the gardener
Jesus showed himself again [John 21 v 1 ] and this time also his disciples did Not recognize the resurrected, but still on earth Jesus at verses 4, 12.
The fact that He was dead in their minds made it impossible to believe that He could be standing with each of them in the present - it's a direct message to us that God is here (Emmanuel) with us and in us, though everyone struggles with that reality when times are tough, and our 5 senses tell us a lie.
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Originally Posted by Matthew 4:4
The resurrected Jesus did not ascend to heaven until 40 days after his resurrection.- Acts 1 v 9 John wrote Revelation decades after the resurrected in the spirit Jesus ascended to heaven.
But it's an interesting point that Jesus said "Abraham rejoiced to see My day" (John 8:56).
When did he? Abraham was told to take his son Isaac to Mount Moriah (God stressed that Isaac was his only son, even though he also had Ishmael - but since Isaac was the only child born of the seed of promise it was the only child recognized, another topic). Standing on Mount Moriah, Abraham could easily see Golgotha, which means "Summit," the highest point of Moriah.
I'm convinced that God showed Abraham the coming Foundation to the covenent God was making with his seed.
Jesus is 'seed' and Jesus is 'foundation', and by Abraham being willing to sacrifice Isaac showed how real the future resurrection would be [ Acts 24 v 15 ]. Abraham already knew Messiah 'seed' would come through Isaac. In order for that to take place Isaac would have to be alive in the flesh, so yes Abraham believed in a fleshly resurrection. Abraham believed Isaac would be brought back to life in the flesh in order to have children an produce that promised 'seed'.
The majority of mankind [ John 3 v 13 ] will have an earthly or fleshly resurrection starting with Jesus 1000-year reign over earth. Those having a first or earlier resurrection to heaven [ Rev. 20 v 6; 5 vs 9,10 ] will reign with Christ as kings and priests over earthly subjects of God's kingdom coming to reign over earth.- Psalm 72 vs 8, 12-14.
Because Jesus was a spirit before God sent Jesus to earth is one reason why Jesus was not resurrected back into decaying flesh but in his spirit body. Those going to heaven like Jesus will be given a spirit body because 'flesh and blood' [physical] can not inherit the heavenly realm of the kingdom of God. -1st Cor. 15 v 50.
In the Greek/English Interlinear for John [ 8 v 56] it mentions ' in order that he might see'. So, Abraham had the prospect of seeing [future tense] compare Hebrews 12 vs 13 and 39 where it mentions not yet seeing the fulfillment of the promise.
Last edited by Matthew 4:4; 02-13-2013 at 10:44 AM..
I like to keep things simple and avoid lengthy posts if I can. And yes, I did read your post - just for you I will go back and answer that post.
The reason I brought up Jesus' death and resurrection is not necessarily to test your faith (because I assumed your answer to be yes) - but to say if you believe THAT, which is something which can't be proven scientifically, then God can indeed operate outside the realm of science, and the other occurrences could take place.
This is where you are wrong. It cannot yet be tested scientifically . . . but it is well within the known laws of science that our consciousness (Spirit) as an energy field phenomenon can survive our physical death.
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And as I said to Matt4:4, the resurrection was indeed physical as well as spiritual.
I know you believe this and that our ancestors NEEDED to believe it . . . because they were terrified of spirits, ghosts and apparitions. But just because Christ had to create the illusion of material bodies for them does not mean that He was not Spirit . . . since He just appeared in closed rooms.
#1 . . . It is clear from your use of the word supernatural that we have no common ground, DRob. God is as natural as we are. There is no such thing as supernatural . . . just natural things we do not yet understand. Believers in the supernatural simply hide their preference for magical and irrational thinking under that label. I have no common ground with magical or irrational beliefs. I do not believe anything that contradicts what we know about reality using extant science. Besides the Bible is a spiritual book with a spiritual purpose that is to be spiritually discerned, period. This means its content is designed to affect our spiritual understanding (what occupies and exists in our minds) of God and our purpose. It is NOT a history book and has no role in interpreting or understanding our worldly history. I use the "mind of Christ" (WWJT) to determine what to believe about what for whom and when . . . guided by the Holy Spirit and what God has "written in our hearts."
Regarding the blue - before Adam's sin, you could make that statement. But after that sin - there is a difference between God and man. He is holy and sinless and we aren't. He separated Himself from us.
Regarding the purple - it's not a preference - it's faith in what is written in the Bible.
Regarding the red - You say that - but you believe in a being that has risen from the dead. That can't be proven scientifically. The body was in a tomb sealed with a heavy stone, with guards outside - and all of a sudden the body is gone. Nobody can explain that - yet you believe it.
I believe the Bible is spiritual and physical and real. Jesus makes reference to events in the OT - Jonah, Moses, Elijah - these are real people with real experiences.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
#2 and #3 . . . Yes I believe everything Jesus says (correctly discerning which words are actually from Jesus and which are from our ignorant ancient ancestors' beliefs about God under the veil of ignorance over reading the OT). The OT contains inspirations from God that have been interpreted by our ignorant ancestors' using their lack of knowledge about the world and their superstitions and savage beliefs about God. So we have to discriminate between the ignorance and superstitions . . . and what was actual inspiration from God. We know that the information and prophesies about Christ were inspired because Jesus fulfilled them. . . but as to the rest we have to use the "mind of Christ" (WWJT) to decide what was inspired. In short . . . nothing that predates Christ's appearance on earth can be considered the words of Jesus, period. Even when we have Christ's words we have to determine which words are to be taken in what way . . . using the way JESUS would want them to be taken (parable, literal, symbolic, cultural or traditional illustration, etc.). Again a simplistic one-size-fits-all literal approach is just wrong and uneducated.
Regarding the green - There were plenty of prophecies that were fulfilled in the OT - some within the natural process - sometimes supernatural means were used. Jesus prophecied that he would die and be raised from the dead in 3 days. That came true via supernatural means. Science cannot prove any resurrection from the dead.
The other thing I want to hit on is this "mind of Christ" that you mention. You are correct about that and the fact the Holy Spirit dwells within believers. However, the Spirit is also responsible for the content written in the Bible.
2 Peter 1:20-21 - But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
The OT was written by men moved by the Holy Spirit. This echoes the 2 Timothy 3 verse where it says all Scripture is inspired. The Holy Spirit WILL NOT contradict anything written in the OT. And if you are having thoughts that tell you that the OT events are not real, then...
1 John 4:1-3 - Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
This is where you are wrong. It cannot yet be tested scientifically . . . but it is well within the known laws of science that our consciousness (Spirit) as an energy field phenomenon can survive our physical death. I know you believe this and that our ancestors NEEDED to believe it . . . because they were terrified of spirits, ghosts and apparitions. But just because Christ had to create the illusion of material bodies for them does not mean that He was not Spirit . . . since He just appeared in closed rooms.
Blue - How can I be wrong when you just said that it can't be tested scientifically?
Red - Forget the laws of science - the Bible supports the principle of the spirits of people existing after physical death. Death is separation from life. Physical death is the physical body separating from its source of life - which is our spirit. Spiritual death is our spirit separated from God, which is THE source of life. Revelation mentions the second death. The first death is physical. The second is spiritual. The spirits of people still exist in the second death - however, God separates those spirits from Himself.
To me - you trust more in science than the Bible in that you must have the Bible (and by extension God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit) subjected to the laws of science. I think that's a problem.
So you DON'T believe in the physical resurrection?
The whole issue can be summed up in the following posts where AmazonJohn and I agree in the top two posts above.
The fact that AmazonJohn does not believe the gospel shows that he is not even equipped to believe the entirety of the Bible.
There is really not much else to discuss with AmazonJohn on this that will be fruitful.
Whether I believe the gospel is actually irrelevant, because the issue is whether or not the OT is flawed.
Certainly you can CHOOSE to believe that science is invalid, in which case any discussion involving the accuracy of ANYTHING is useless. For example, if I say the Earth is round and you state the Earth is flat, if you disallow science, then there is no way of proving either, then it all comes down to belief. Belief or faith are not a pathways to truth. This is called "hiding one's head in the sand" because one doesn't want to be proven wrong.
Blue - How can I be wrong when you just said that it can't be tested scientifically?
Because it is not necessary to invent supernatural explanations when scientific hypotheses (if not yet proven) can explain it in ways CONSISTENT with scientific knowledge.
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Red - Forget the laws of science - the Bible supports the principle of the spirits of people existing after physical death. Death is separation from life. Physical death is the physical body separating from its source of life - which is our spirit. Spiritual death is our spirit separated from God, which is THE source of life. Revelation mentions the second death. The first death is physical. The second is spiritual. The spirits of people still exist in the second death - however, God separates those spirits from Himself.
To me - you trust more in science than the Bible in that you must have the Bible (and by extension God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit) subjected to the laws of science. I think that's a problem.
I do not think it is a problem. I see that there is some common ground between us . . . but not enough. If explanations cannot be provided that are CONSISTENT with a scientific knowledge of reality . . . or worse contradict it . . . they are NOT acceptable, period. THAT is what is wrong with literal interpretations of some things in the Bible. It is magical thinking and superstition . . . not understanding.
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So you DON'T believe in the physical resurrection?
I believe in the resurrection (rebirth as Spirit) so it is unnecessary to believe what is patently in contradiction to known science . . . though I see no problem with doing so if it comforts you. Carnal minds are wedded to the physical body and identify with it completely. Desiring to retain it is completely natural.
Whether I believe the gospel is actually irrelevant, because the issue is whether or not the OT is flawed.
Certainly you can CHOOSE to believe that science is invalid, in which case any discussion involving the accuracy of ANYTHING is useless. For example, if I say the Earth is round and you state the Earth is flat, if you disallow science, then there is no way of proving either, then it all comes down to belief. Belief or faith are not a pathways to truth. This is called "hiding one's head in the sand" because one doesn't want to be proven wrong.
The issue is - what you believe about the gospel will determine how you believe the OT. Those who are Christians will understand this - you will not.
I am not saying science is totally invalid. I am saying that God, at any time, can override what we believe makes sense in the scientific arena. The earth is obviously round.
Water has specific properties. An axehead has specific properties based on what it is made of. However...
2 Kings 6:5-7 - But as one was felling a beam, the axe head fell into the water; and he cried out and said, "Alas, my master! For it was borrowed." Then the man of God said, "Where did it fall?" And when he showed him the place, he cut off a stick and threw it in there, and made the iron float. He said, "Take it up for yourself." So he put out his hand and took it.
Obviously an axe head made of iron is too dense to float in the water. However, at that point in time, God intervened and it floated.
If I believe God is all powerful, creator of all and able to raise Christ from the dead - why would I not believe He is able to intervene and float an axe head to the water's surface?
Consequently - you do not believe God is all powerful, and you subject Him to the constraints of science and the laws of physics.
OK - we disagree.
But for me there's more because God has intervened in my life on occasion.
My wife and I had recently gotten married (many years ago) and were about to have a baby. We had no money for any baby supplies - had not bought a single diaper - we are talking over 7 months into the pregnancy. Yet, we continued our faithfulness to honor a pledge to give to our church (10% plus extra for building fund). So I am sitting in a Bible study class on a Saturday morning - and the class inquires how we are preparing for our new arrival. I confess and say we have nothing (did not mention the pledge). All of a sudden, God works in their hearts to give us everything - and we ended up having a surprise baby shower for my wife. We received more from that class than we could have purchased - crib, clothes, clean up supplies, portable baby bath, rocking chair - everything. Cost us nothing. Total grace from God.
Add to that - I had started a new job - been there only a few months. Unexpectedly - they threw me a baby shower. They were not believers - but God worked in their hearts to give.
So when stuff like that happens - how can I not believe in an all powerful God?
Last edited by DRob4JC; 02-13-2013 at 03:00 PM..
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