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Hey, I'm like everyone else ... I think it would be great if election included sanctification!
However, I see too many problems in Scripture for this to be the case.
Scripture references are available for all of the following points:
- God’s elect are foreknown, predestined, chosen, called
- God’s guardian angels protect God’s elect (at least until they become believers)
- God gives the gift of faith to His elect
- God gives His elect to Jesus
- God creates born-again believers by placing the Holy Spirit in their hearts
- Believers are warned to first count the cost before continuing
- God’s plan has always been to accomplish His goals with the co-operation of man
- Sanctification … “God chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit”
- Major points of sanctification: holiness, perfection, love, forgiveness
- Church members are given a multitude of dire warnings to pursue holiness
- God promises born-again believers that they will be sanctified, IF they really co-operate
IMO, it is very possible for a born-again Christian to NOT co-operate with being sanctified.
Thus IMO, there are 3 types of people in the churches (along with the curious and the seekers):
(1) the converted ... believe the gospel in their minds, but not in their hearts
(2) the born-again ... have been given the Holy Spirit in their hearts, but resist full sanctification
(3) the elect ... really willing to pay the price to be sanctified unto holiness by the Holy Spirit
Therefore IMO, it is possible to be born-again, but not be part of the elect who attain salvation.
You are Church pastor and do you not understand these things?. John 3:10
I'm asking the OP to see if he can tell me. We need to establish what he means by it. I know what the Bible teaches regarding it...but I don't know what he means by it. It's vital to the discussion of his first post.
I'm asking the OP to see if he can tell me. We need to establish what he means by it.
I know what the Bible teaches regarding it...but I don't know what he means by it.
It's vital to the discussion of his first post.
You are absolutely correct ... it is vital to the discussion.
One who has been born-again has been given the precious Holy Spirit,
who has come INSIDE, and will remain there "forever" (John 14:16).
The person will demonstrate quite a change of life (attitudes, opinions, etc.).
But, this may not manifest for a while, e.g. for Billy Graham and myself it took 6 months!
I almost fell of my chair when I heard him say this on TV.
I want to know what the OP means by perfection.
Maybe he's perfect, but I sure ain't.
Truly, it's the striving for holiness, perfection, etc. that counts.
Part of that is daily repentance for sins committed (1 John 1:5-10).
Holiness is required
“… but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,
because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.” (1 Peter 1:15-16)
“… He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love …” (Ephesians 1:4)
“… to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight,
if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast,
and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel …” (Colossians 1: 22-23)
More verses: 2 Timothy 1:9, 2 Peter 3:11, Romans 12:1, 1 Peter 2:5-9, Rev. 20:6, 21:8
Perfection is required
“Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.” ( Matthew 5:48)
“Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom,
that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.”(Colossians 1:28)
“But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete …” (James 1:4)
“… that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle
or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. (Ephesians 5:26-27)
More verses: John 17:22-23, Galatians 3:3-4, Ephesians 4:13, Hebrews 10:1
Forgiveness is critical
“God is love” (1 John 4:8).
IMO, unforgiveness is quite the opposite of love, and it borders on hate.
“… if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses. But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven
forgive your trespasses.” (Mark 11:25-26, Matthew 6:14-15)
“Forgive, and you will be forgiven.” (Luke 6:37)
“Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?’
Jesus said to him, ‘I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.’ ”
(Matthew 18:21-22)
“If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.” (Luke 17:3)
“And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay
all that was due to him. “So My heavenly Father also will do to you -- if each of you,
from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.” (Matthew 18:34-35)
Many are tortured in hell. This is verified by those who have had the experience of being
shown this place. (And it would make no sense to attribute these visits to Satan.)
You are absolutely correct ... it is vital to the discussion.
One who has been born-again has been given the precious Holy Spirit,
who has come INSIDE, and will remain there "forever" (John 14:16).
The person will demonstrate quite a change of life (attitudes, opinions, etc.).
But, this may not manifest for a while, e.g. for Billy Graham and myself it took 6 months!
I almost fell of my chair when I heard him say this on TV.
So the Holy Spirit may be in a person but he isn't saved?
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
As I pointed out to pcamps....I know what the Bilbical teaching is....but I'm curious about the line of reasoning, and the terminology that the OP is using.
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