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Old 02-18-2013, 02:52 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 6,999,472 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Romans 8:10 refers to those who are in Christ. Cornelius was not in Christ. You may assume that, but it doesn't make it so.

Romans 8:10 does not prove Cornelius was saved before baptism. Nowhere in the Cornelius story does it say he was SAVED prior to his baptism. The word saved isn't used in the entire passage. This is strictly an assumption on your part.

Peace,

Katie
Cornelius has the Holy Spirit but you don't believe he was in Christ. Let me ask then who is Cornelius in then?
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Old 02-18-2013, 08:10 PM
 
Location: Coffee County, Alabama
289 posts, read 288,138 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Cornelius has the Holy Spirit but you don't believe he was in Christ. Let me ask then who is Cornelius in then?
Cornelius didn't have the Holy Spirit. If he did have the Holy Spirit he didn't get it until Acts 10:48. Speaking in tongues was the Holy Spirit falling on or being poured out on Cornelius. It was not the indwelling, regenerating presence of the Holy Spirit in the life of Cornelius.
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Old 02-18-2013, 09:09 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 6,999,472 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GREATDIVIDE46 View Post
Cornelius didn't have the Holy Spirit. If he did have the Holy Spirit he didn't get it until Acts 10:48. Speaking in tongues was the Holy Spirit falling on or being poured out on Cornelius. It was not the indwelling, regenerating presence of the Holy Spirit in the life of Cornelius.
Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

If Cornelius didn't have the Holy Spirit then why would the Apostles have been so amazed to believe that they had but been granted repentance unto life?

But if your case is true then they Apostles didn't have the Holy Spirit on Pentacost. For this is what we read:

Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
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Old 02-19-2013, 07:17 AM
 
Location: Coffee County, Alabama
289 posts, read 288,138 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

If Cornelius didn't have the Holy Spirit then why would the Apostles have been so amazed to believe that they had but been granted repentance unto life?
They were amazed because Cornelius and his household were Gentiles and not Jews. It had nothing to do with whether or not they had the Holy Spirit.

Quote:
But if your case is true then they Apostles didn't have the Holy Spirit on Pentacost. For this is what we read:

Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
The bolded part in your quote above refers to the gift of tongues of the Holy Spirit, not the gift of the Holy Spirit himself. Therefore, it has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not the Jews on the day of Pentecost or Cornelius were indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

As a matter of fact the apostles did receive the Holy Spirit days before the day of Pentecost (see John 20:22). Therefore, when they received the gift of tongues it had nothing to do with them receiving the indwelling, regenerating presence of the Holy Spirit since they already had that. And since Cornelius received the gift of tongues just like the apostles did, it had nothing to do with him receiving the indwelling, regenerating presence of the Holy Spirit either. Therefore, Cornelius did not have the Holy Spirit until Acts 10:48.
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Old 02-19-2013, 01:22 PM
 
698 posts, read 644,889 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GREATDIVIDE46 View Post
They were amazed because Cornelius and his household were Gentiles and not Jews. It had nothing to do with whether or not they had the Holy Spirit.


The bolded part in your quote above refers to the gift of tongues of the Holy Spirit, not the gift of the Holy Spirit himself. Therefore, it has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not the Jews on the day of Pentecost or Cornelius were indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

As a matter of fact the apostles did receive the Holy Spirit days before the day of Pentecost (see John 20:22). Therefore, when they received the gift of tongues it had nothing to do with them receiving the indwelling, regenerating presence of the Holy Spirit since they already had that. And since Cornelius received the gift of tongues just like the apostles did, it had nothing to do with him receiving the indwelling, regenerating presence of the Holy Spirit either. Therefore, Cornelius did not have the Holy Spirit until Acts 10:48.
Just what or who exactly is the "holy spirit"?

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Old 02-19-2013, 03:10 PM
 
9,663 posts, read 1,182,706 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Cornelius has the Holy Spirit but you don't believe he was in Christ. Let me ask then who is Cornelius in then?
I've already answered this.

Prophesying and speaking in tongues does not prove a person is saved.
Read the story of Caiaphas in John 11. Then read about King Saul in 1 Samuel 19. Caiaphas prophesied while planning to murder Jesus and Saul was trying to kill David while he prophesied.

Tell me. Can you find anything other than Cornelius to prove that a person is saved before baptism. The Cornelius story doesn't prove anything. Nowhere in the Cornelius story are we told he is saved. This is just an assumption on your part. If it doesn't clearly say it, then it proves nothing.

Peace,

Katie
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Old 02-19-2013, 03:13 PM
 
9,663 posts, read 1,182,706 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Cornelius has the Holy Spirit but you don't believe he was in Christ. Let me ask then who is Cornelius in then?
Where does it say Cornelius was in Christ?

Cornelius has the gift of tongues. That is not the same as the indwelling Holy Spirit. I've already shown you that one doesn't need to be saved to have the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Katie
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Old 02-19-2013, 04:34 PM
 
Location: Hephzibah, GA
281 posts, read 304,335 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Romans 8:10 refers to those who are in Christ. Cornelius was not in Christ. You may assume that, but it doesn't make it so.

Romans 8:10 does not prove Cornelius was saved before baptism. Nowhere in the Cornelius story does it say he was SAVED prior to his baptism. The word saved isn't used in the entire passage. This is strictly an assumption on your part.

Peace,

Katie
When was Cornelius 'in Christ?' At the point that he believed and repented? Or not until after he was baptized? And if he has suffered and died before he had been baptized, would his faith have saved him or would he still have to have been baptized for the remission of his sins in order to be saved because he was in the church age? The event of salvation is faith in Christ which encompassed repentance and confession. When he believed, he was in Christ.

While it does not say that Cornelius and his household was save (actually use that word) prior to baptism, it also does not say he was saved at the event of or after his baptism. And you're right, of course, there is absolutely no mention of the the words saved or salvation, so I guess since we cant assume that he was saved at any point in the Acts 10:34-48 passage. The only thing we can take away is that they received the promise of the indwelling Holy Spirit same as the Jews did, and that's only because 11:17-18 tells us so.

What was the gift that was given by promise when they 'believed in the Lord Jesus Christ'? It was not the empowering of the Holy Spirit, Jesus had already given them that kind of temporary filling. It was the full on indwelling of the Holy Spirit which was evidenced by 'speaking the mighty works of God' in dialects that they were not native of. This particular event, the receiving of the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, is seen only three other times in the New Testament: Acts 8 with the Samaritans, Acts 10 with Cornelius and his household and with John's disciples in Acts 19 (which is a backward account of the other two, baptism of water then baptism of the Holy Spirit).

There is also no wording as to the Ethiopian Eunuch's salvation in Acts 8:26-40. Are we to assume then that he was not saved? Or is it alright to believe that he was saved because he went into water? Neither Philip nor the Eunuch assumed baptism was required for salvation, at least we're not told that Philip preached to him that it was. So one might ask why the Eunuch mentioned water at all. It was not for salvation, rather it was a public announcement that he was becoming a disciple of a religious sect. Initiates into various religious cults or sects would go into the water naked and when they emerged they would be clothed with the robes (clothes) of a disciple of the various sects they were joining.

Why was baptism so important back in the days of the Apostles? Was it because they understood that baptism was the 'event' of salvation. Hardly, but it was a very public confession that as a candidate for baptism, you were dedicating your life to the teachings of that religious, or political, sect you were joining. For a Jew, this would be blasphemous, because he declaring Jesus as his Lord and God. Baptism could be the end of a believers life, both literally and symbolically, at the very best he could hope for excommunication by the his family, at worst, imprisonment or stoning. The importance of baptism, especially for a Jew, was that you were confessing Jesus Christ as Lord, letting everyone know that you were becoming his disciple. If you could not follow on in a public confession like that and confess Christ as Lord, you were denying him publicly and so Christ would deny you to his Father. While it was only a ritual washing of water it was a significant part of the confession of a true convert.

Thus, we can say that salvation is through faith alone and not through a ritual event of any kind. Faith beats in mind the repentance and confession that is needed, it's really all one and the same. There is no true faith with out repentance, and true repentance walks hand in hand with confession. While one may believe the story of the gospel message, if there is no repentance, its just a story that has no power in the life of the one hearing the message. That's only assent, a very basic facet of faith, on that does not lead to salvation.

We will have to agree that we do not agree with each other. You cannot show me from scripture that baptism, at least not water baptism, saves. In only two places, and one questionable one, does there even begin to appear the possibility that ritual water baptism is required for salvation. Nothing that either of us can say to the other is going to change either of our minds on this. You believe in a salvation/righteousness that is obtained outside of the scriptural establishment of faith along. The same means of salvation/righteousness that Abraham had, simply faith alone in God. The righteous before Christ looked forward to the cross, their salvation was apart from any works of righteousness and definitely had no 'event' of salvation such as baptism. The righteous after the cross are saved in the same way, God did not change how he credits righteousness to man, He fulfilled the promise that He would provide a way to credit righteousness to us. Salvation has always been by faith alone with no reference to a works 'event' of salvation.

Blessings in Christ,

Matthew
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Old 02-19-2013, 04:44 PM
 
Location: Hephzibah, GA
281 posts, read 304,335 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Where does it say Cornelius was in Christ?

Cornelius has the gift of tongues. That is not the same as the indwelling Holy Spirit. I've already shown you that one doesn't need to be saved to have the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Katie
Actually, to have the Gifts of the Spirit, which are given to the church, you have to be part of the body of Christ, the church. While the Holy Spirit had come upon unrighteous men, and an animal, to prophecy, and do His work, the Gift of Tongues is given to the church. I know it's hard to understand that the gift of prophecy in the church is different than the prophetic utterances of those that were used by God and yet not counted as part of the wicked before Christ, but there is a difference. And the Donkey wasn't given the gift of tongues, he was just given the power to be understood by Baalam. But this is discussion should be opened in another forum.
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Old 02-19-2013, 05:33 PM
 
Location: Coffee County, Alabama
289 posts, read 288,138 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kids in america_ View Post
Just what or who exactly is the "holy spirit"?

The Biblical answer is the Holy Spirit is:

The Spirit of God -- Genesis 1:2
The Lord God -- Isaiah 61:1
The Father -- Matthew 10:20
Grace -- Zechariah 12:10
Truth -- John 14:17
Holiness -- Romans 1:4
Life -- Romans 8:2
Christ -- Romans 8:9
Adoption -- Romans 8:15
The Son -- Galatians 4:6
Glory -- 1 Peter 4:14
Prophecy - Revelation 19:10
My Spirit -- Genesis 6:3
The Helper -- John 14:16, 26
Eternal Spirit -- Hebrews 9:14

Just to name a few of the titles applied to the Holy Spirit by God's Word.
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