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You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.
See it's always better to read the whole thing instead of one line. That is why I think it's about idol worsip and not statues or such themselves.
I think the key word here is "graven". What is graven? One dictionary source said it is a sculpted, or carved, image. Or cast metal. Like a statue. In the Bible they are talking about an idol that people made and then bowed down to, in worship. It does not pertain to a picture, or painting, like a picture of Jesus hanging in your home. Could it pertain to a small statue of Jesus, like we see in homes, hanging from a cross? I don't really know....but I've decided to steer clear of them. Why? Because, I feel the Bible says very plainly "don't make them", so therefore we had better not make them...it's simple.
I know there are those who say "yes...but we don't worship the statue....it's just a reminder of what Jesus did..."
Yes but....what does the Bible say?
Exodus 20:4
"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."
It says don't make a likeness of ANYTHING, whether it is in heaven, or earth. I think whether you made it, or some factory made it, does not make any difference....if you got it, I'd get rid of it. Just my 2cts...
Bud
Thanks Bud;
This hit the nail right on the head.......
this thread was not to set anyone up; but to see if I understood the arguments of many people about this issue ie: in my family my friends, in the body of Christ collectively. The statues are gone but I must explain to my grand; that" they went to visit the other bears and decided to stay" LOL or somethingI don't know maybe she won't even miss them; but she'll still see them at school and other places; America is swamped with "graven images"; (not speaking of other countries) right now. But geesh!!
That is why the word of God speaks about " the narrow gate" and how "few will find it", because we lust after the carnal self and God will not share His glory with nothing or no one. I've already gotten rid of a lot of things when I read the book on spiritual housecleaning....but I honestly hadn't noticed the 4th verse before; I can't believe it!!. I've looked everywhere and there's nothing to refute this passage.
See it's always better to read the whole thing instead of one line. That is why I think it's about idol worsip and not statues or such themselves.
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Ex 20:6 (KJV)
yes verse 6 does say mercy will be shown unto thousands that love me and keep my commandments.
Catch phrase is still "keep my commandments" and verse 4 is one His commandments.
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Ex 20:6 (KJV)
yes verse 6 does say mercy will be shown unto thousands that love me and keep my commandments.
Catch phrase is still "keep my commandments" and verse 4 is one His commandments.
OK, I've been watching and I still don't get the point.
Are you going to break out Leviticus and make sure you obey the law on removing mold from your home?
I doubt it.
Usually this is where someone comes in and starts talking about the different kinds of law (ceremonial, dietary, et al) I say, point me to the scripture that defines the various types of law. If scripture doesn't make a seperation, then the law is the law. And if you are still under the law, then Christ died for nothing.
Not saying you specifically, yhwhshalomjr, just reiterating on my earlier posts in this thread.
I was deceived into thinking that this was a discussion forum, not one to discredit the merits of Christianity and the Authoritative word of God.
God's word is just that His word. since this is a Christianity Forum we should be discussing Christian topics and not challenging the validity of them; because there is a forum already for this Religion&Philosophy, anything goes there.
I thank everyone who posted here and hope that every Christian will remember our call and our witness, because if we do not believe the Jesus of the Bible, how can we profess to be Christians.
We are called to study the word of God, not add to or take away.If I've done this I have been forgiven by the blood of Jesus. As I hope you have as you've asked for forgiveness. Some have left this forum because of different reasons. I can only imagine why. We are called to edify and encourage one another.
I posted this thread not for selfish reasons , but as an open discussion, as a Bible study , we should challenge one another to study and to provoke good works, not insult one another with our own imaginations. Well anyway, I thank Budinark and all those who posted in this thread and this is what I found out after searching many books of the Bible, they all said the same thing. Thanks be to God who is the Author and Finisher of our Faith; And concerning the thread, this is what I came up with concerning the Law of Moses and Exodus 20: Matthew 5:17 again but the entire chapter is worth it's weight in gold,
Jesus speaks to the disciples one day on a hillside as the crowds were gathering and He sat down and taught them, that "Humble men are very fortunate!" " for the Kingdom of Heaven is given to them. The Beatitudes speak volumes: But He makes a point to tell them this, must have been because He felt it important enough to make sure they understood
Matthew 5:17He came to fulfil the law
17 `Do not suppose that I came to throw down the law or the prophets--I did not come to throw down, but to fulfil; 18 for, verily I say to you, till that the heaven and the earth may pass away, one iota or one tittle may not pass away from the law, till that all may come to pass. 19 `Whoever therefore may loose one of these commands--the least--and may teach men so, least he shall be called in the reign of the heavens, but whoever may do and may teach them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens. 20 `For I say to you, that if your righteousness may not abound above that of the scribes and Pharisees, ye may not enter to the reign of the heavens.
Matt 5:17-20 (YLT) 1. He protests against the thought of cancelling and weakening the Old Testament; Think not that I am come to destroy the law and the prophets. (1.) "Let not the pious Jews, who have an affection for the law and the prophets, fear that I come to destroy them.’’ Let them be not prejudiced against Christ and his doctrine, from a jealousy that this kingdom he came to set up, would derogate from the honour of the scriptures, which they had embraced as coming from God, and of which they had experienced the power and purity; no, let them be satisfied that Christ has no ill design upon the law and the prophets. "Let not the profane Jews, who have a disaffection to the law and the prophets, and are weary of that yoke, hope that I am come to destroy them.’’ Let not carnal libertines imagine that the Messiah is come to discharge them from the obligation of divine precepts and yet to secure to them divine promises, to make the happy and yet to give them leave to live as they list. Christ commands nothing now which was forbidden either by the law of nature or the moral law, nor forbids any thing which those laws had enjoined; it is a great mistake to think he does, and he here takes care to rectify the mistake; I am not come to destroy. The Saviour of souls is the destroyer of nothing but the works of the devil, of nothing that comes from God, much less of those excellent dictates which we have from Moses and the prophets.
This is not to inflame any Christian; why should it?
and I'm not talking about you Alpha"; we've already understood each other on this.
Isn't Christianity forums for fellowship and edifying of like minded Christians?
God Bless You All
I was deceived into thinking that this was a discussion forum, not one to discredit the merits of Christianity and the Authoritative word of God.
Is that what you think I've done? discredit Christianity and the authority of the Word of God? I'm actually trying to strengthen the Word of God. The Law weakens it. John 1:1 says Jesus IS the Word.
I can only guess you are directing that to me since I am the only one who has had issues with this legalistic approach to the Kingdom of God.
I also have much respect for Matthew Henry, but I don't think his words are scripture. And, based on this quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by yhwhshalomjr
[i]1. He protests against the thought of cancelling and weakening the Old Testament;
Then He (Jesus) would be protesting the scripture I quoted earlier from Hebrews. I don't think Christ would have a problem with any scripture and, clearly, Hebrews calls the old law imperfect and weak. (I'm assuming that quote was from Matthew Henry, I know you quote his concise commentary fairly regularly.)
But I'll ask again, does someone who makes an argument that the Old Law is a set of rules we must follow, do they also follow the whole of the Old Law, or just the portions they 'see fit'?
Just a question to whoever is still under the Old Law.
Is that what you think I've done? discredit Christianity and the authority of the Word of God? I'm actually trying to strengthen the Word of God. The Law weakens it. John 1:1 says Jesus IS the Word.
I can only guess you are directing that to me since I am the only one who has had issues with this legalistic approach to the Kingdom of God.
I also have much respect for Matthew Henry, but I don't think his words are scripture. And, based on this quote
Quote:
This is not to inflame any Christian; why should it?
and I'm not talking about you Alpha"; we've already understood each other on this
Then He (Jesus) would be protesting the scripture I quoted earlier from Hebrews. I don't think Christ would have a problem with any scripture and, clearly, Hebrews calls the old law imperfect and weak. (I'm assuming that quote was from Matthew Henry, I know you quote his concise commentary fairly regularly.)
But I'll ask again, does someone who makes an argument that the Old Law is a set of rules we must follow, do they also follow the whole of the Old Law, or just the portions they 'see fit'?
Just a question to whoever is still under the Old Law.
What's the deal with you today Alpha? I don't need to beat around the bush" I would have said it if I was referencing this to you and you alone.
Didn't I say I wasn't speaking to you. Peace
Don't let me down on this one; Peace
Last edited by yhwhshalomjr; 10-24-2007 at 04:40 PM..
Reason: add quote and some other stuff
I was deceived into thinking that this was a discussion forum, not one to discredit the merits of Christianity and the Authoritative word of God.
God's word is just that His word. since this is a Christianity Forum we should be discussing Christian topics and not challenging the validity of them; because there is a forum already for this Religion&Philosophy, anything goes there.
I thank everyone who posted here and hope that every Christian will remember our call and our witness, because if we do not believe the Jesus of the Bible, how can we profess to be Christians.
We are called to study the word of God, not add to or take away.If I've done this I have been forgiven by the blood of Jesus. As I hope you have as you've asked for forgiveness. Some have left this forum because of different reasons. I can only imagine why. We are called to edify and encourage one another.
I posted this thread not for selfish reasons , but as an open discussion, as a Bible study , we should challenge one another to study and to provoke good works, not insult one another with our own imaginations. Well anyway, I thank Budinark and all those who posted in this thread and this is what I found out after searching many books of the Bible, they all said the same thing. Thanks be to God who is the Author and Finisher of our Faith; And concerning the thread, this is what I came up with concerning the Law of Moses and Exodus 20: Matthew 5:17 again but the entire chapter is worth it's weight in gold,
Jesus speaks to the disciples one day on a hillside as the crowds were gathering and He sat down and taught them, that "Humble men are very fortunate!" " for the Kingdom of Heaven is given to them. The Beatitudes speak volumes: But He makes a point to tell them this, must have been because He felt it important enough to make sure they understood
Matthew 5:17He came to fulfil the law
17 `Do not suppose that I came to throw down the law or the prophets--I did not come to throw down, but to fulfil; 18 for, verily I say to you, till that the heaven and the earth may pass away, one iota or one tittle may not pass away from the law, till that all may come to pass. 19 `Whoever therefore may loose one of these commands--the least--and may teach men so, least he shall be called in the reign of the heavens, but whoever may do and may teach them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens. 20 `For I say to you, that if your righteousness may not abound above that of the scribes and Pharisees, ye may not enter to the reign of the heavens.
Matt 5:17-20 (YLT) 1. He protests against the thought of cancelling and weakening the Old Testament; Think not that I am come to destroy the law and the prophets. (1.) "Let not the pious Jews, who have an affection for the law and the prophets, fear that I come to destroy them.’’ Let them be not prejudiced against Christ and his doctrine, from a jealousy that this kingdom he came to set up, would derogate from the honour of the scriptures, which they had embraced as coming from God, and of which they had experienced the power and purity; no, let them be satisfied that Christ has no ill design upon the law and the prophets. "Let not the profane Jews, who have a disaffection to the law and the prophets, and are weary of that yoke, hope that I am come to destroy them.’’ Let not carnal libertines imagine that the Messiah is come to discharge them from the obligation of divine precepts and yet to secure to them divine promises, to make the happy and yet to give them leave to live as they list. Christ commands nothing now which was forbidden either by the law of nature or the moral law, nor forbids any thing which those laws had enjoined; it is a great mistake to think he does, and he here takes care to rectify the mistake; I am not come to destroy. The Saviour of souls is the destroyer of nothing but the works of the devil, of nothing that comes from God, much less of those excellent dictates which we have from Moses and the prophets.
This is not to inflame any Christian; why should it?
and I'm not talking about you Alpha"; we've already understood each other on this.
Isn't Christianity forums for fellowship and edifying of like minded Christians?
God Bless You All
Just because we are all Christians doesn't mean we will all agree on everything within Christianity. No one here has challenged the idea of Christianity. We all believe that Jesus is the son of God, that He died for our sins and that our salvation is through Him. So what is the problem? It seems unless we agree exactly as you would like us to we are challenging Christianity and not doing what the forum is about. I don't think if we disagree and debate amongst ourselves what we understand or believe something to be within Christianity we are any less Christian we are just different from eachother, and that is why -there are so many denomintations of Christian.
Also for my 2 cents, I think as Alpha pointed out you are either under the old law or you are not. Now I for one don't plan on putting either of my kids to death for back talking me as Leviticus would command, so I think my statues can stay as well.
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Ex 20:6 (KJV)
yes verse 6 does say mercy will be shown unto thousands that love me and keep my commandments.
Catch phrase is still "keep my commandments" and verse 4 is one His commandments.
I don't see the issue as not keeping commandments in this discussion, but rather what is the commandment? I do not read this set of scripture in a standalone isolated context. I see it as a complete set where the admonishment against idolatry is as much a part of the graven image context as God's jealousy is a part of why idolatry is forbidden. I do not see any admonishion against decoration or adornment in daily life. It seem incongruous to believe that a style of adornment would rank up there with other topics of the Decalogue.
However, if the context is within the scope of idolatry,then the priority becomes incredibly more consistent with the remainder of the texts.
Just because we are all Christians doesn't mean we will all agree on everything within Christianity. No one here has challenged the idea of Christianity. We all believe that Jesus is the son of God, that He died for our sins and that our salvation is through Him. So what is the problem? It seems unless we agree exactly as you would like us to we are challenging Christianity and not doing what the forum is about. I don't think if we disagree and debate amongst ourselves what we understand or believe something to be within Christianity we are any less Christian we are just different from eachother, and that is why -there are so many denomintations of Christian.
Also for my 2 cents, I think as Alpha pointed out you are either under the old law or you are not. Now I for one don't plan on putting either of my kids to death for back talking me as Leviticus would command, so I think my statues can stay as well.
Okay!
Thanks for your posts
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I Rest my case
