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Old 02-24-2013, 07:16 PM
 
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One context: Directed at a particular group of people who were spiritually mature enough to not be deceived by false teachers. Some people appeal to 1 John 2:27 to justify dismissing the pastor/teacher.

1 John 2:27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.


Different context: Directed at spiritually immature believers who though they themselves should have been teachers, needed to be retaught basic doctrines.

Hebrews 5:12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food 13] For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. 14] But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

Context, Context, Context, Context, Context...

Ephesians 4:11 And He (God the Holy Spirit) gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12] for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13] until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14] As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15] Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16] from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.


God provided the spiritual gift of pastor/teacher for the edifcation and spiritual growth of the church. The pastor is responsible to properly prepare himself so that he may be able to dig into the Word of God and teach his congregation. This does not contradict the fact that the Holy Spirit is the true Mentor.
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Old 02-24-2013, 08:09 PM
 
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But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

Unfortunately, not many have discernment; neither can they distinguish the differences.
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Old 02-24-2013, 08:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

Unfortunately, not many have discernment; neither can they distinguish the differences.
Well if Moses wouldn't have made up commandments we wouldn't have this problem.
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Old 02-24-2013, 08:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
One context: Directed at a particular group of people who were spiritually mature enough to not be deceived by false teachers. Some people appeal to 1 John 2:27 to justify dismissing the pastor/teacher.

1 John 2:27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.
Again with the "special people" belief as if God were a respecter of persons! We are ALL "special" to God. Christ abides with us and we are to become spiritually mature, period. You would think we would be after 2000+ years! The churches have prevented that and have been a major stumbling block to our spiritual maturity and it has to stop.
Quote:
Different context: Directed at spiritually immature believers who though they themselves should have been teachers, needed to be retaught basic doctrines.

Hebrews 5:12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food 13] For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. 14] But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.
You have the context wrong, yet again. It was directed at the "dull of hearing" who were spreading . . . (long after they should have been) . . . the "carnal milk" used for the babes in Christ . . . NOT the full Gospel of Christ for the mature in Christ. The first category characterizes the entire history of the Christian churches throughout the past 2000+ years. They have stagnated teaching the "milk" and refused to mature their understanding to grasp the "solid food" of Christ's Gospel. When they should have long ago learned enough to teach the "meat" . . . they kept teaching the "milk."

Hebrews 5:11-14 King James Version (KJV)

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Quote:
Context, Context, Context, Context, Context...

Ephesians 4:11 And He (God the Holy Spirit) gave (PAST tense) some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12] for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13] until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14] As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15] Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16] from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
You always seem to get the context wrong. The word "GAVE" is past tense . . . we were NOT supposed to have been kept as children for 2000+years . . . stagnated at the stage of our ignorant ancestors drinking "carnal milk." We should long ago have matured beyond that to the full mature Gospel of Christ. The churches carry a heavy burden . . . as do those who continue to push the "milk" as teachers.
Quote:
God provided the spiritual gift of pastor/teacher for the edifcation and spiritual growth of the church. The pastor is responsible to properly prepare himself so that he may be able to dig into the Word of God and teach his congregation. This does not contradict the fact that the Holy Spirit is the true Mentor.
You deny the New Covenant.

It is Hebrews 8 that specifically states the terms of the New Covenant.

Hebrews 8:10-11 King James Version (KJV)

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

You and your teachers and the churches have frightened your brothers and sisters away from seeking the Holy Spirit's guidance to what God has "written in our hearts" . . . keeping them as children drinking "milk" . . . when they should have spiritually matured to "meat" long ago. Shame on you all. You carry a heavy burden.
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Old 02-24-2013, 09:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Again with the "special people" belief as if God were a respecter of persons! We are ALL "special" to God. Christ abides with us and we are to become spiritually mature, period. You would think we would be after 2000+ years! The churches have prevented that and have been a major stumbling block to our spiritual maturity and it has to stop.
You have the context wrong, yet again. It was directed at the "dull of hearing" who were spreading . . . (long after they should have been) . . . the "carnal milk" used for the babes in Christ . . . NOT the full Gospel of Christ for the mature in Christ. The first category characterizes the entire history of the Christian churches throughout the past 2000+ years. They have stagnated teaching the "milk" and refused to mature their understanding to grasp the "solid food" of Christ's Gospel. When they should have long ago learned enough to teach the "meat" . . . they kept teaching the "milk."

Hebrews 5:11-14 King James Version (KJV)

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
You always seem to get the context wrong. The word "GAVE" is past tense . . . we were NOT supposed to have been kept as children for 2000+years . . . stagnated at the stage of our ignorant ancestors drinking "carnal milk." We should long ago have matured beyond that to the full mature Gospel of Christ. The churches carry a heavy burden . . . as do those who continue to push the "milk" as teachers. You deny the New Covenant.

It is Hebrews 8 that specifically states the terms of the New Covenant.

Hebrews 8:10-11 King James Version (KJV)

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

You and your teachers and the churches have frightened your brothers and sisters away from seeking the Holy Spirit's guidance to what God has "written in our hearts" . . . keeping them as children drinking "milk" . . . when they should have spiritually matured to "meat" long ago. Shame on you all. You carry a heavy burden.
No Doctor, I am not wrong. I stated that Hebrews 5:12 pertained to spiritually immature believers. And that they should have been teachers but were instead in need of being taught. And you are off topic with your rant.

Furthermore, Hebrews 8: 8-12 quotes an Old Testament passage that as it relates to Israel deals with the Millennial Kingdom. Not to the Church Age.

Last edited by Mike555; 02-24-2013 at 09:35 PM..
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Old 02-24-2013, 09:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Again with the "special people" belief as if God were a respecter of persons! We are ALL "special" to God. Christ abides with us and we are to become spiritually mature, period. You would think we would be after 2000+ years! The churches have prevented that and have been a major stumbling block to our spiritual maturity and it has to stop.
You have the context wrong, yet again. It was directed at the "dull of hearing" who were spreading . . . (long after they should have been) . . . the "carnal milk" used for the babes in Christ . . . NOT the full Gospel of Christ for the mature in Christ. The first category characterizes the entire history of the Christian churches throughout the past 2000+ years. They have stagnated teaching the "milk" and refused to mature their understanding to grasp the "solid food" of Christ's Gospel. When they should have long ago learned enough to teach the "meat" . . . they kept teaching the "milk."

Hebrews 5:11-14 King James Version (KJV)

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
You always seem to get the context wrong. The word "GAVE" is past tense . . . we were NOT supposed to have been kept as children for 2000+years . . . stagnated at the stage of our ignorant ancestors drinking "carnal milk." We should long ago have matured beyond that to the full mature Gospel of Christ. The churches carry a heavy burden . . . as do those who continue to push the "milk" as teachers. You deny the New Covenant.

It is Hebrews 8 that specifically states the terms of the New Covenant.

Hebrews 8:10-11 King James Version (KJV)

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

You and your teachers and the churches have frightened your brothers and sisters away from seeking the Holy Spirit's guidance to what God has "written in our hearts" . . . keeping them as children drinking "milk" . . . when they should have spiritually matured to "meat" long ago. Shame on you all. You carry a heavy burden.
Good post, Doctor!
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Old 02-24-2013, 09:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Follower Of X View Post
Well if Moses wouldn't have made up commandments we wouldn't have this problem.
And you have followed them from your youth?
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Old 02-26-2013, 06:38 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
.

I totally agree when you said “God provided the spiritual gift of pastor/teacher for the edifcation and spiritual growth of the church. The pastor is responsible to properly prepare himself so that he may be able to dig into the Word of God and teach his congregation”. Because that’s Jehovah God’s words, (1Pet. 5:1-5 , and Heb. 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you). But sorry, you’re wrong when you refer to Ephesians 4:11, “and he” being… “God the Holy Spirit”. If you read up, you would know ,” he”, was Jesus. Sadly MANY refuse to believe the HS ISN’T A spirit BEING, “part of a trinity”. If they only do research, they would know the origins of this False teaching.

they also misunderstood what Jesus meant at ,(Matt. 12:31,32 and Mark 3:29), concerning th HS. notice Matt. 12:31,32 , "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come). Jesus even shows, one can speak ill against him but NOT the HS. question...if there's SUPPOSE to be a "3-in-1 god", why WASN'T the FATHER meantioned? many do believe the Father is higher, so why wasn't he meantioned. now!.. notice what Jesus said here...(Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father).

Jesus mention himself, humans, even the Angels, NOT knowing when the end would come. but ONLY the FATHER WOULD KNOW. why wasn't the HS mentioned? , isn't "he" SUPPOSE TO BE part of Jesus and his Father? simple Jesus NEVER taught of a HS being a SPIRIT being. and the reason GOD wasn't mention in Matt 12:31,32, was because Jesus in a sense WAS referring to his Father. the HS is his Father causing things to happen, it's his POWER to make things happen. so NO one, be-it human or NOT should speak against it, because they CAN'T touch his Power, in ANY way. Acts 7:55,56 , and Acts 11:24, shows these faithful men were filled with the HS. there wasn't a high spirit being, (the third of Jesus and his Father, floating around) ,One in order to see into Heaven. The other allowed Jehovah God’s power to lead him in the right direction, There’s NO being do this. Many say, “knowledge is power”, but in this case, knowledge mean life ,(John17:3). And Jesus DIDN’T mention knowing this so-call third being. peace
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:29 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jojo-50 View Post
I totally agree when you said “God provided the spiritual gift of pastor/teacher for the edifcation and spiritual growth of the church. The pastor is responsible to properly prepare himself so that he may be able to dig into the Word of God and teach his congregation”. Because that’s Jehovah God’s words, (1Pet. 5:1-5 , and Heb. 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you). But sorry, you’re wrong when you refer to Ephesians 4:11, “and he” being… “God the Holy Spirit”. If you read up, you would know ,” he”, was Jesus. Sadly MANY refuse to believe the HS ISN’T A spirit BEING, “part of a trinity”. If they only do research, they would know the origins of this False teaching.

they also misunderstood what Jesus meant at ,(Matt. 12:31,32 and Mark 3:29), concerning th HS. notice Matt. 12:31,32 , "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come). Jesus even shows, one can speak ill against him but NOT the HS. question...if there's SUPPOSE to be a "3-in-1 god", why WASN'T the FATHER meantioned? many do believe the Father is higher, so why wasn't he meantioned. now!.. notice what Jesus said here...(Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father).

Jesus mention himself, humans, even the Angels, NOT knowing when the end would come. but ONLY the FATHER WOULD KNOW. why wasn't the HS mentioned? , isn't "he" SUPPOSE TO BE part of Jesus and his Father? simple Jesus NEVER taught of a HS being a SPIRIT being. and the reason GOD wasn't mention in Matt 12:31,32, was because Jesus in a sense WAS referring to his Father. the HS is his Father causing things to happen, it's his POWER to make things happen. so NO one, be-it human or NOT should speak against it, because they CAN'T touch his Power, in ANY way. Acts 7:55,56 , and Acts 11:24, shows these faithful men were filled with the HS. there wasn't a high spirit being, (the third of Jesus and his Father, floating around) ,One in order to see into Heaven. The other allowed Jehovah God’s power to lead him in the right direction, There’s NO being do this. Many say, “knowledge is power”, but in this case, knowledge mean life ,(John17:3). And Jesus DIDN’T mention knowing this so-call third being. peace
Yes, in Ephesians 4:11 which quotes Psalms 68:18 with some changes, the reference is to Jesus Christ who established the spiritual gifts for the Church Age. I'm afraid that in a thread about context I wasn't paying attention to the context. Be aware of the following however. All spiritual gifts come from God, and Jesus Christ is God. The Holy Spirit is also God, and it is He who sovereignly decides which believer gets which spiritual gifts as stated in the following passages.

Hebrews 2:4 God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.

1 Cor. 12:4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5] And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6] There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. 7] But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8] For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9] to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10] and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11] But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. 12] For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13] For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. ... 28] And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. 29] All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?

Spiritual gifts were instituted by Christ at His ascension (Ephesians 4:8, 11) and given to individual believers according to the Father's plan through the Holy Spirit who distributes those gifts according to His own sovereign will (1 Corinthians 12:8-11; Hebrews 2:4).


Regarding Matt. 12:31,32 and Mark 3:29, the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit was a reference was to the fact that in attributing Jesus' miracles to Satan rather than to the Holy Spirit, the Pharisees were manifesting their unbelief that Jesus was the Messiah. A person who dies without believing on Christ for salvation cannot be forgiven. While people reject Christ as Savior today, the specific sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be commited today because it required Jesus being personally on the earth performing miracles under the power of the Holy Spirit. That answers your question as to why the Father wasn't mentioned.

As for Mark 13:32, pertaining to the fact that Jesus didn't know the timing of the things of which He had just spoken, this has to do with the self limitation of Jesus' use of His deity in accordance with the Father's will for Jesus during His First Advent. In other words, Jesus was speaking from the standpoint of His humanity. Not from the standpoint of His deity. This is known as the doctrine of Kenosis. This is what Philippians 2:6-8 refers to when it says that Jesus who existed as God emptied Himself in the sense of laying aside His privileges as God. In accordance with the Father's plan, Jesus who was and is fully God, did not hesitate to set aside His self-willed use of deity when He became a man. Jesus had all the rights and abilities of deity, but surrendered His right to manifest Himself visibly as God during the First Advent. Jesus did not cease to be God when He became man, but did not use His deity independently of the Father's plan in order to benefit Himself.

That Jesus spoke of the Holy Spirit as a Person is clearly shown in John 16:13 when He stated that the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of truth) would speak, but not on His own inititiative. He would disclose what He heard. The Holy Spirit hears and speaks. And as shown earlier in this post, The Holy Spirit distributes spiritual gifts as He wills. The Holy Spirit has a will. He hears and He speaks. These show Him to be a Person.

Three times in Acts (8:29, 10:19-20, 13:2-4) the Holy Spirit is specifically mentioned as speaking and giving directives. These are attributes of personhood.


While there continues to be those who deny the reality of the Trinity, the issue of God's triunity was settled long ago by the early church.

I realize that you probably will not accept any of this, but nevertheless the Scriptures reveal that God exists in three Persons who are a united One in essence. The church has long recognized this. As well, there were, and are those who deny this.

Last edited by Mike555; 02-26-2013 at 10:51 AM..
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:45 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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You need no one to teach You / You have need for someone to teach You: Context!!!

Which is why those who teach better had heed the multiple warnings of false teachers by God. And why we must beware of them:

Jeremiah 14:14 Then the Lord said to me, “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds."


Jeremiah 23:1
“Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of my pasture!” declares the Lord.

Ezekiel 34:2“Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel; prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Woe to the shepherds of Israel who only take care of themselves! Should not shepherds take care of the flock?

Matthew 7:15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves."

2 Peter 2:1" But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves."
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