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Old 08-04-2009, 02:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarletWren View Post
To answer a question like Shana has posed could have many facets. Jesus asked the crowd why they called him good. He said no one was good but God. Yet don't we see 'good' people all the time? So the good that men do can not compare to the good that God is, thus God is the ultimate 'good' by which all other qualities of 'good' must be compared and, obviously because of Jesus' question, all good falls short of the ultimate good which is God. So then perfection can not be attributed to anyone but God. Everything else falls short of His perfection. And if God is perfect, and of course He is, how could His plan, his creation, not go the way He intended? How would that be possible?

Yet we can be sure that what God wills will occur, for He said so in HIs word to us for none can stay His hand. So whatever He willed in His creation of man, angels, whatever, will come to pass. He is not like man who creates a machine and does not know the outcome. He is not like men who begin a building without having all that is needed to finish it. He counted the cost before He began His work, and you can be sure that whatever He intended will be accomplished in His time.

We are not robots. We are less than robots. We are clay in the hands of an expert potter. If He mars the clay, He can reshape it, and that is exactly what has happened. And He made us able to perceive the results of Godlessness, selfishness, all the things that are antithesis to Him. Just as a scientist can take a mouse with a will of its own, and direct it down certain paths in a maze by way of rewards, closed passages, even painful consequences for certain choices, God can deal with humans in just such a way, only in a much more complicated fashion. Though we resist with all our strength at times, He can direct our paths with the merest quirk of His 'finger'. We want to go to the store, but our car won't start, we get a bout of the flu, etc. etc. It was our will to go the store, but we were not able to bring it to pass.
Or we really don't want to do something else, and inexorably we can't seem to make a move without that event coming to pass in our life. As James said, we can't say we will do this or that, we can only say, If the Lord wills, we will do this or that.

We have plenty of choices. But the way we react to those choices is determined by culture, environment, temperment, maturity, experience. And who controls where we were born, who to? our intelligence? etc. Hmmmmm. Just random acts of chance??? ok
yes, I agree, scarlet
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Old 08-04-2009, 02:04 PM
 
Location: NC
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Quote:
I am still not sure , but the thought just came to if he was perfect would he have fallen ?
Pcamps, my belief is that if he was created perfect as most believe, he would have made the right decision and would have not disobeyed. He would have known better (knowing God) even if someone believes that he had free will. Did Adam really know God? Jesus was the only perfect man. God bless.
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Old 08-04-2009, 02:11 PM
 
Location: New England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Pcamps, my belief is that if he was created perfect as most believe, he would have made the right decision and would have not disobeyed. He would have known better (knowing God) even if someone believes that he had free will. Did Adam really know God? Jesus was the only perfect man. God bless.
Yes i'm persuaded towards believing this.
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Old 08-04-2009, 02:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Oakback View Post
Yes Chapter 15 ( sorry ).

What is sown vs. what is raised; implying that the natural man is contemptible, and perishable. The natural man is subject to decay.
Sustaining "perfection" would seem impossible. So does "perfection" presuppose it's duration?
Oakback

I agree with you - scripture states that first is the corruptible, then is the incorruptible - first Adam, then Christ
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Old 08-04-2009, 02:18 PM
 
Location: The A
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
Oakback

I agree with you - scripture states that first is the corruptible, then is the incorruptible - first Adam, then Christ
Yes, but that pertains to the elect [ The called], not the children of the devil..
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Old 08-09-2009, 06:15 AM
 
Location: Israel
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Default In fact nobody was created perfect

The Christ Himself was not initially perfect:

"In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering" (Hebrews 2:10)

So perfection is achieved by combination of Adam and Jesus.
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Old 11-17-2016, 12:52 PM
 
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How do we know that Jesus was perfect apart from the bible saying he was perfect?The answer most often quoted or given is that he never sinned. so if the fact that Jesus never sinned is evidence he was perfect than the fact that Adam and Eve sinned is evidence that they were imperfect else you can not say the evidence that Jesus never sinned is evidence that he was perfect.To my mind God had to make humankind flawed because if he had created humankind perfect they would have been Gods. If Adam and Eve were truly perfect what characteristic that God has would they yet lack? The only characteristic that they would lack is that they wouldn't have been eternal beings which wouldn't be of much importance.

The greatest evidence that mankind was made flawed is that God said that there would be no Gods formed after himself and man is a formed being God could not make mankind perfect and the fact that Adam never sinned until the tempter had come down among them does not prove they were perfect up until the tempter tempted them. It only proves that temptation is a catalysis for sin. Without temptation there wouldn't have been any sin no matter how flawed they were.

God is God and the only God there is because He alone has the divine nature only. Unbelievers have only the sin nature and believers have both the divine nature and the sin nature. God alone has only the divine nature. He alone is perfect.Even when children of God go to heaven they will still be flawed for they can never loose their sin natures having partaken of the divine nature because if they do they become Gods having only the divine nature.

Even though created beings will for ever be flawed there will be no sin in heaven not because humankind have become perfect but because there will be no temptation to sin just as there was no sin in the garden until the tempter had come down to tempt them. Since the tempter won't be in heaven there will be no sin even though they will remain as they had been created flawed.

Last edited by Goddess3; 11-17-2016 at 01:09 PM..
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Old 11-17-2016, 01:53 PM
 
Location: N. Fort Myers, FL
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Well Done! ya, Our ideas about "perfect" seem to be different from God's ideas about "perfect," seems to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Pcamps, my belief is that if he was created perfect as most believe, he would have made the right decision and would have not disobeyed.
hmm. your babies are created perfect, and yet when you tell them not to stick their hand in a fire, or they will get burned, they do it anyway. is that surprising to you? Do you not think that maybe God was not at all surprised, when Adam "disobeyed," then?

somebody answer for her, if you like.
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Old 11-17-2016, 03:45 PM
 
9,251 posts, read 3,122,362 times
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You got that right. Perfect is not perfect the way we think of it. It means to be complete, as in the head and the body are one. Which is why He said the 3rd day He would be perfected/completed, the Head and the body being one again, as we were one with Him from the foundation of the world, also meaning the Head and the body were one. Peace
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Old 11-17-2016, 03:52 PM
 
Location: N. Fort Myers, FL
3,348 posts, read 1,084,402 times
Reputation: 99
God said, “Who told you that you were naked?"
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