Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Did you look at the scripture I gave in this thread? Do they not show that God can and does change His mind?
I doubt a bit on that. For me it's not always as clear as it seems to be for you. That's part of the reason I tried to look at the implications/bigger picture.
Quote:
Salvation is of God and God alone, it is not contingent on the will of man, but on the will of God.
God’s will has never changed,
Does God have two wills? You showed verses in which God changes His mind. Isn't changing His mind the same as changing His will?
I answered your other questions but deleted them because I think the above question is the very core of the 'problem' I have with your view.
If God decides the best color for a robe is white and later He changes His mind and says brown and then blue it doesn't change anything about the salvation process. But where does it stop?
Maybe example of the robes is a good one to discuss because it has no doctrinal load (I think)
If God says red to Adam, brown to Noach and green to Moses does that prove He changed His mind?
Or is He for example changing the colors according to a schedule He made 100 billion years ago?
Did God change His mind when adding new laws to the Bible? Or did He just reveal His complete will over a very long period of time?
After Adam and Eve ate from the tree they hid themselves. God acted as if He couldn't find them. Had God really reached His limits then or was He just toying with Adam and Eve?
Did God change His mind several times in a few minutes when He was asked to not to destroy Sodom if at least x good people lived there?
It may be a bit of topic and I can't really support it with verses but I have the feeling part of God's interaction is like a human parent has with a young child. Like a parent asking a child if the kettle is hot and best not be touched.
The questions are for the benefit of the child not because the parent wants to learn from a 3 year old.
So maybe the changing of God's mind are part of an interaction with His children. He doesn't really change His mind but just takes a detour to His original opinion.
All you proved to me Scott is that no one I know on these forums actually holds the Plato/Augustinian view as you have described it. Not only that, neither Plato nor Augustine held the views as you have characterized them.
You missed the whole point Bob. The pagan Platonian/Augustine view is that God cannot change his mind, that God has exhaustive foreknowledge (knows all things that will happen from eternity past) and that God has meticulous control of everything that happens in this world. And this is the belief you and so many others hold to.
All I was doing was bring this pagan Platonian/Augustine view to its logical conclusion.
For example you state
1. Who here believes
Quote:
that our prayers have no affect on how God responds in our lives?
How can those who believe the pagan Platonian/Austine view believe prayer does have effect? Because believing prayer can affect the outcome is not combatable with the pagan Platonian/Augustine view.
Let’s say you are sick unto death Bob, and God says that you will die of your sickness. How can you effectively pray that you do not die of your sickness if you do not believe God can change His mind? As a matter of fact just by praying that you do not die of your sickness shows that you do not really believe God cannot change His mind at all.
Quote:
2. Who here believes that if we go from disobedience to obedience that God will not rejoice?
3. Who here believes that if we go from obedience to disobedience that God will not be displeased?
4. Who here believes that our obedience / disobedience does has no affect on God's mind towards us or on what we reap from God?
Yet according to the pagan Platonian/Augustine view God has meticulous control of everything that happens, being the cause of the disobedience and the cause of the obedience, what does God really have to rejoice about, be displeased about or be affected by disobedience and obedience of men if He is the controlling factor in each case?
Quote:
No one believes that. No one believes that God is a statue who does not respond to our prayers or actions.
So you say, but you still maintain that God cannot change his mind, that God has exhaustive foreknowledge (knows all things that will happen from eternity past) and that God has meticulous control of everything that happens in this world. Thus you do believe that which you say you do not.
Quote:
All of scriptures talks about the blessing & the curse, the wide road, the narrow road and their consequences and their affect on whether God is pleased or displeased with us.
Yet according to the pagan Platonian/Augustine view God, which you also hold to God is in control of the whole ball of wax, so how can God be pleased or displeased by our actions?
If God is in meticulous control of everything in this world and He is displeased with something that happens in this world then what God is really displeased with is Himself. That what the pagan Platonian/Augustine view lead to.
Quote:
Also, anthropomorphism is not an empty statement, devoid of meaning. Every anthropomorphism conveys truth about God. For example "The arm of the Lord...". Does God have an arm? No and Yes. God does not have an arm of flesh and blood. God is spirit. But God does have a spiritual arm. God has the ability to reach out and change things. The same is true of every anthropomorphism. They all convey by analogy some truth about God. We just have to correctly discern both the similarities to man and dissimilarities.
Exactly, so tell me Bob what truth about God does scripture show when they state God repents/changes His mind? It all fine and dandy to say an anthropomorphism conveys truth about God but fail to tell us what that truth is supposed to be.
So go to the scriptures I used in this thread and explain to me what truth about God that the anthropomorphism showing God repenting is supposed to convey, other than God does indeed change His mind.
Quote:
Where I disagree with you and what you have not proved is that God does not foreknow he will repent. I believe God does foreknow he will repent and nothing you have written shows otherwise. You didn't give scriptures showing this. You just gave your own faulty reasoning. In fact, there are scriptures that show God does know he will repent. Even Jeremiah foreknew that God would repent in the scripture you gave. " Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you. "
How can you disagree with me on something I have never said Bob? Where have I said God does not foreknow that He will repent?
I doubt a bit on that. For me it's not always as clear as it seems to be for you. That's part of the reason I tried to look at the implications/bigger picture.
I look at it from the big picture also WW, but can only post in small bites. This first bite is concerning whether or not God can change His mind/repent. The scriptures I used here show that God can and does in fact change His mind. If you disagree with those scriptures saying God changes His mind please explain how you view each of the scriptures I have used to show that God does change His mind.
Quote:
Does God have two wills?
NO, but many on this forum will tell you He does.
Quote:
You showed verses in which God changes His mind. Isn't changing His mind the same as changing His will?
NO, because God is not changing His mind about His will, God has always wanted a perfect/mature people. God’s change of mind is in regards to mans will. Man is disobedient, what does God do to a child who is disobedient? Does He not correct the child so that the child will do His/Gods will?
Quote:
I answered your other questions but deleted them because I think the above question is the very core of the 'problem' I have with your view.
I wish you had not done that (deleted them) brother, because the point of my writing these things was to get those who believe in the pagan Platonian/Augustine view was to take a hard look at what they believe. What you’re doing is what everyone else I speak on this issue about is tries to do, which takes the view away from what they believe and only want to focus on what I believe.
Don’t get me wrong WW, I do not mind giving forth what I believe, but I would like quid pro qou.
Quote:
If God decides the best color for a robe is white and later He changes His mind and says brown and then blue it doesn't change anything about the salvation process. But where does it stop? Maybe example of the robes is a good one to discuss because it has no doctrinal load (I think) If God says red to Adam, brown to Noach and green to Moses does that prove He changed His mind? Or is He for example changing the colors according to a schedule He made 100 billion years ago? Did God change His mind when adding new laws to the Bible? Or did He just reveal His complete will over a very long period of time? After Adam and Eve ate from the tree they hid themselves. God acted as if He couldn't find them. Had God really reached His limits then or was He just toying with Adam and Eve? Did God change His mind several times in a few minutes when He was asked to not to destroy Sodom if at least x good people lived there? It may be a bit of topic and I can't really support it with verses but I have the feeling part of God's interaction is like a human parent has with a young child. Like a parent asking a child if the kettle is hot and best not be touched. The questions are for the benefit of the child not because the parent wants to learn from a 3 year old. So maybe the changing of God's mind are part of an interaction with His children. He doesn't really change His mind but just takes a detour to His original opinion.
Well this is really for my anthropomorphism 2 thread WW so will just say this for now. Yes God changed His mind several times in a few minutes and God asking questions of Adam shows us that God must search the reigns of our hearts in order for Him to know what we will or will not do.
You missed the whole point Bob. The pagan Platonian/Augustine view is that God cannot change his mind, that God has exhaustive foreknowledge (knows all things that will happen from eternity past) and that God has meticulous control of everything that happens in this world. And this is the belief you and so many others hold to.
All I was doing was bring this pagan Platonian/Augustine view to its logical conclusion.
For example you state
1. Who here believes
How can those who believe the pagan Platonian/Austine view believe prayer does have effect? Because believing prayer can affect the outcome is not combatable with the pagan Platonian/Augustine view.
Let’s say you are sick unto death Bob, and God says that you will die of your sickness. How can you effectively pray that you do not die of your sickness if you do not believe God can change His mind? As a matter of fact just by praying that you do not die of your sickness shows that you do not really believe God cannot change His mind at all.
Yet according to the pagan Platonian/Augustine view God has meticulous control of everything that happens, being the cause of the disobedience and the cause of the obedience, what does God really have to rejoice about, be displeased about or be affected by disobedience and obedience of men if He is the controlling factor in each case?
So you say, but you still maintain that God cannot change his mind, that God has exhaustive foreknowledge (knows all things that will happen from eternity past) and that God has meticulous control of everything that happens in this world. Thus you do believe that which you say you do not.
Yet according to the pagan Platonian/Augustine view God, which you also hold to God is in control of the whole ball of wax, so how can God be pleased or displeased by our actions?
If God is in meticulous control of everything in this world and He is displeased with something that happens in this world then what God is really displeased with is Himself. That what the pagan Platonian/Augustine view lead to.
Exactly, so tell me Bob what truth about God does scripture show when they state God repents/changes His mind? It all fine and dandy to say an anthropomorphism conveys truth about God but fail to tell us what that truth is supposed to be.
So go to the scriptures I used in this thread and explain to me what truth about God that the anthropomorphism showing God repenting is supposed to convey, other than God does indeed change His mind.
How can you disagree with me on something I have never said Bob? Where have I said God does not foreknow that He will repent?
Ok Scott. I know little about the views of Plato or Augustine nor do I care to defend their views. If you want to talk about what I believe I would be happy to.
I believe God foreknows all
I believe God can be pleased and displeased and happy and sad.
I believe God can "change His mind" but not in the same way man does.
I believe our prayers can affect the outcome.
I look at it from the big picture also WW, but can only post in small bites. This first bite is concerning whether or not God can change His mind/repent. The scriptures I used here show that God can and does in fact change His mind. If you disagree with those scriptures saying God changes His mind please explain how you view each of the scriptures I have used to show that God does change His mind.
Quote:
NO, because God is not changing His mind about His will, God has always wanted a perfect/mature people. God’s change of mind is in regards to mans will. Man is disobedient, what does God do to a child who is disobedient? Does He not correct the child so that the child will do His/Gods will?[/color] [/font]
.......
I wish you had not done that (deleted them) brother, because the point of my writing these things was to get those who believe in the pagan Platonian/Augustine view was to take a hard look at what they believe
Scott before we can have a useful discussion we should at least understand eachothers definitions. From your original post I had the impression our definitions are not entirely the same.
(Likely due to the fact English isn't my first language)
Anyway for me mind and will are the same thing. Or at least God's will is 'created' by His mind.
This isn't even about who is right or wrong about the words; it's, imo, impossible to discuss if we define those very important words differently.
So even if I would be able to give a perfect explanation about all verses you listed you still wouldn't understand because we the confusion the words "will" and "mind" cause.
Quote:
What you’re doing is what everyone else I speak on this issue about is tries to do, which takes the view away from what they believe and only want to focus on what I believe.
Scott, I think we all fall into that trap. It's not good but it happens.
Yes, I focus on what you believe because you are the author of this thread and to stay on topic I have to discuss your view. Or as a matter of courtesy at least try to understand your view because I start bashing yours views. Figuratively speakingbecause I in no way want to start a fight. But also gave my view. In case it's a bit to hidden "I hold he pagan Augustinian view".
Maybe not entirely because I simply don't know each and every detail about Augustine's view.
On top of that our definitions aren't the same. If we clear up those problems we maybe have a more similar view as it seems to be right now. Or even more opposite :-)
God already knew Hezekiah would have x number of years added on to his life. He just wanted to provide Hezekiah with a problem to get the proper reaction out of him so He could give him more years.
Notice the conversation Isaiah had with Hezekiah:
2Ki 20:1 In those days has Hezekiah been sick unto death, and come unto him does Isaiah son of Amoz the
prophet, and said unto him, `Thus said Yahweh:Give a charge to your house, for you are dying, and do not
live.
Isaiah did not say God told him he was going to die right away but just that he was dying. Hezekiah was beginning to die when he was born for he had death operating in him due to what Adam did (Romans 5:12). He really was going to die just as Isaiah told him. Isaiah could have told every human living right then that they are dying.
Likewise God knew the Ninevites would repent. But He had to send Jonah to get them to repent.
Likewise God knew He is going to save all mankind. But He had to send His Son to die for their sins.
Could be right but I have doubts.
Adding 15 years means increasing the life span by 15 years. God said Hezekiah would die soon. It was a statement. God didn't add any condition like "unless you ...."
"Dying/starting to die" instead of "die" doesn't fully answer Scott's view either.
You are correct in stating Hezekiah started dying the moment he was born. But in 2Ki 20:1 that lifelong process of dying was nearly complete. God added 15 extra years (of dying).
Tests are in the nature of God but the way the passage is phrased God lied or changed His mind.
God lying is at the very bottom of my list of possibilities.....
Are you being deliberately obtuse or do you not really see it?
In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death.
If Hezekiah's was not going to die of his sickness then God telling Hezekiah that He would heal him is nothing more then God posturing.
What exactly does "sick unto death" mean?
a] Hezekiah is going to die of the illness. Fact. Not open for any discussion.
b] Hezekiah had, say, cancer which unlike for example a common cold is fatal. In other words Hezekiah had a illness which almost always leads to a (quick) death.
In both cases 15 years are added. The difference I see is this:
In example "a" God changed His mind because He added 15 years.
In example "b" God removed the illness so Hezekiah could live on 15 more years.
Yes, it can be argued example b isn't adding 15 years but removing an illness that reduced Hezekiah life with 15 years.
Ok Scott. I know little about the views of Plato or Augustine nor do I care to defend their views. If you want to talk about what I believe I would be happy to.
Bob as I said before you might not know that which you believe comes from the pagan Platonian/Augustine view but it is in the very air you breath and has been taught by mainstream Christianity since the days of Augustine. You simply cannot help but to have been influenced by it. And by speaking with you on this subject for the last 4 or 5 years whether you know it or not what you put forth is very much the pagan Platonian/Augustine view.
Quote:
I believe God foreknows all
By this you mean God foreknow all from eternity past correct? That is the pagan Platonian/Augustine view. And I have shown in the OP concerning Hezekiah that God did not know that Hezekiah would pray and that God would change His mind and add 15 years to Hezekiah's life. For if God foreknew that He was going to add 15 years to Hezekiah's life then God lied to Hezekiah when He told him he would die and not live.
Quote:
I believe God can be pleased and displeased and happy and sad.
How can God be truly happy and sad if God is in control of every single event that happens in the world?
Quote:
I believe God can "change His mind" but not in the same way man does.
That is very ambiguous Bob, saying God can change His mind but not in the same way as man, but then not explaining how it is God does change His mind make your statement ambiguous.
Also it is not compatible with your understanding that God foreknows everything from eternity past. For if God foreknows everything from eternity past how can God be said to change His mind?
Quote:
I believe our prayers can affect the outcome.
If God is in complete control of every single event that happens in the world how can our prayers affect the outcome?
Scott before we can have a useful discussion we should at least understand eachothers definitions. From your original post I had the impression our definitions are not entirely the same.
(Likely due to the fact English isn't my first language)
Anyway for me mind and will are the same thing. Or at least God's will is 'created' by His mind.
This isn't even about who is right or wrong about the words; it's, imo, impossible to discuss if we define those very important words differently.
So even if I would be able to give a perfect explanation about all verses you listed you still wouldn't understand because we the confusion the words "will" and "mind" cause.
The spirit, soul and flesh also have a will. Therefore the change of mind is not necessarily that of a change of will.
Quote:
Scott, I think we all fall into that trap. It's not good but it happens.
Yes, I focus on what you believe because you are the author of this thread and to stay on topic I have to discuss your view. Or as a matter of courtesy at least try to understand your view because I start bashing yours views. Figuratively speakingbecause I in no way want to start a fight. But also gave my view. In case it's a bit to hidden "I hold he pagan Augustinian view".
Maybe not entirely because I simply don't know each and every detail about Augustine's view.
On top of that our definitions aren't the same. If we clear up those problems we maybe have a more similar view as it seems to be right now. Or even more opposite :-)
As the will is not just of the mind brother the only way to help clear up the problem of the difference between our definitions is to explain how you see the scriptures I have used to show God changes His mind. Your explanation of the scriptures will help me see where you are coming from.
Adding 15 years means increasing the life span by 15 years. God said Hezekiah would die soon. It was a statement. God didn't add any condition like "unless you ...."
"Dying/starting to die" instead of "die" doesn't fully answer Scott's view either.
You are correct in stating Hezekiah started dying the moment he was born. But in 2Ki 20:1 that lifelong process of dying was nearly complete. God added 15 extra years (of dying).
Tests are in the nature of God but the way the passage is phrased God lied or changed His mind.
God lying is at the very bottom of my list of possibilities.....
So if God lying is at the very bottom of your list of possibilities, and you believe the will and mind are the same thing, are you saying then that you believe God changed His will?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
