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Not necessarily a reference to time - but the fact the God does not change. What about the eternal and for ever and ever part in green above in the 1 Timothy verse?
The literal rendering of this verse is thus (Darby translation):
Now to the King of the ages, [the] incorruptible, invisible, only God, honour and glory to the ages of ages. Amen.
Just so I know - what is your preferred term that would equal my meaning of eternal?
The Greek word "aperantos" which means "endless."
But this word is never used in connection with God or punishments.
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God will never cease to exist. He is unending with regards to time. What is THAT term?
I agree with you that God will never cease to exist. At least I hope that is the case. We don't actually have a Bible verse which states "God will never cease to exist," but we take it by faith He will always be around.
There is no term in the Bible describing God to be eternal. All descriptive terms associated with God is to inform us of His relationship to the eons/ages and time.
The Greek word "aperantos" which means "endless."
But this word is never used in connection with God or punishments.
Can't you be objective in your observations and at least make the point that the term is not used for neither punishment nor life?
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Originally Posted by Eusebius
I agree with you that God will never cease to exist. At least I hope that is the case. We don't actually have a Bible verse which states "God will never cease to exist," but we take it by faith He will always be around.
There is no term in the Bible describing God to be eternal. All descriptive terms associated with God is to inform us of His relationship to the eons/ages and time.
Actually the term does exist - you just choose not to acknowledge it because it doesn't fit your belief system.
I also find it interesting that above, you chose to use the term "eternal" with reference to an endless time frame - yet when the NASB translators (or whomever) use "eternal", it's not an endless time frame.
Do really really believe that the Creator of the heavens and the earth and the languages can not express the fact that He will exist forever? Really??
We are unable to fathom ... in our present 3 dimensional world ... the totality of an infinite, never ending Spirit who is our God.
But ultimately, those who are His are His in Spirit, and they live in Him now and will continue to live in and with the Spirit God forever and ever without end.
How? God does not live in time or space...neither do His children. He gives His Spirit to us as believers in His Son, and are at that time given eternal life.
God's Children need to think in spiritual terms and not physical terms.
When Jesus said feed my sheep...was Jesus really talking physical food ... or spiritual food?
Originally Posted by DennisWayne View Post
The Greek phrase aionas ton aionon, which is translated "forever and ever," occurs 18 times in the Greek New Testament. In 17 of them, the phrase means without end, extending into infinity. In Rev. 19:3, the phrase is used to describe the destruction of the great ***** of Babylon (Rev. 17:1,4) whose smoke ascends forever and ever. It too is eternal and it signifies the beginning of the eternal judgment that comes upon her.
Also worth examining is Rev. 14:11: "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
The Greek in Rev. 14:11 is only slightly different. "Forever and ever" is translated from the Greek, aionas ton aionon, which is literally "ages of the of ages." In Rev. 14:11, the Greek is aionas aionon which is literally, "ages of ages." In the latter, the single Greek word "of the" is missing. But it is not necessary and does not change the meaning of the text. Therefore, the scripture teaches the smoke of their torment goes up forever, without end.
The phrase "eons of the eons" does not mean "forever or without end." Just as the phrase "Holies of the Holies" does not mean unending holies. It truly means the two greatest holiest parts of the Tabernacle in relation to the other three parts the High Priest had to go through to get to. Likewise the "eons of the eons" are the two greatest eons out of all the eons that went before because Christ reigns on the earth in the 4th eon to come (the 1000 year long eon) and God and Christ reign in the final eon called the New Earth.
Can't you be objective in your observations and at least make the point that the term is not used for neither punishment nor life?
I thought I told you the term is not used for punishment or life. Am I missing something?
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Actually the term does exist - you just choose not to acknowledge it because it doesn't fit your belief system.
I think we both have a communication problem here. Maybe you could tell me what the term is that exists which tells us God is eternal and punishment is eternal. Please don't use "aion" or "aionion" because those two terms can't possibly be used to describe eternality, not because of my belief system but because Greek grammar and any common sense grammar forbid such a radical idea for those two words.
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I also find it interesting that above, you chose to use the term "eternal" with reference to an endless time frame - yet when the NASB translators (or whomever) use "eternal", it's not an endless time frame.
Do really really believe that the Creator of the heavens and the earth and the languages can not express the fact that He will exist forever? Really??
God never gave any word in Hebrew or Greek, which two languages He originally chose to reveal Himself, to describe Him as being "eternal." We are encouraged by the apostle Paul to "not go above what is written."
Forget the freakin' translations. At this point, we all know what the root word is. What does it mean?
So he isn't going to be the King forever? Or is he King of all the "ages"?
He can't be king forever because 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 shows Him quitting the reign and giving the kingdom over to God. He does reign on the earth in the next two ages (the 1000 year age and the new earth age) then He rules so perfectly as to rule out all rule including His own.
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Is eternal life temporary or forever?
It would be better to ask: "Is eonian life temporary or forever?" The life the sheep nations get and the chastening the goat nations get is eonian or pertaining to the eon.
The life the believers get is eonian or pertaining to the eons.
When the eons end, the Bible says they end, we continue to live, not because we have eonian life but because we also get immortality and incorruption (1 Cor.15).
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Is punishment temporary or forever?
Temporary
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All the same Greek term. Pick one or the other - not both.
Forget the freakin' translations. At this point, we all know what the root word is. What does it mean?
So he isn't going to be the King forever? Or is he King of all the "ages"?
Is eternal life temporary or forever?
Is punishment temporary or forever?
All the same Greek term. Pick one or the other - not both.
Freaking translation? This has nothing to do with root words, the Greek text has the plural of the noun aion not the adjective aionios, even if aionios would mean endless, the proper translation still would be "King of ages"; or "King of endlessnesses" if you insist on this meaning and think this would make sense
I would actually not bet that aionios life is endless, see here:
Wether aionios life is endless or not, I believe aionios punishment is not endless.
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Originally Posted by saved33
We are unable to fathom ... in our present 3 dimensional world ... the totality of an infinite, never ending Spirit who is our God.
But ultimately, those who are His are His in Spirit, and they live in Him now and will continue to live in and with the Spirit God forever and ever without end.
How? God does not live in time or space...neither do His children. He gives His Spirit to us as believers in His Son, and are at that time given eternal life.
God's Children need to think in spiritual terms and not physical terms.
When Jesus said feed my sheep...was Jesus really talking physical food ... or spiritual food?
I thought I told you the term is not used for punishment or life. Am I missing something?
You said God or punishments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
I think we both have a communication problem here. Maybe you could tell me what the term is that exists which tells us God is eternal and punishment is eternal. Please don't use "aion" or "aionion" because those two terms can't possibly be used to describe eternality, not because of my belief system but because Greek grammar and any common sense grammar forbid such a radical idea for those two words.
God never gave any word in Hebrew or Greek, which two languages He originally chose to reveal Himself, to describe Him as being "eternal." We are encouraged by the apostle Paul to "not go above what is written."
I don't have the communication problem. I let you know when I don't understand something.
I believe that eternal means forever when used in the Bible - God as King, eternal life, eternal punishment at the prescribed time - all unending.
In YOUR case... you want to say punishment is not forever - fine. But for consistency, you should not be proclaiming everyone is saved because eternal life is not forever. And you can't believe that God will be King forever - because the Bible never indicates God is King forever according to you.
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