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Old 03-26-2013, 08:12 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,712,214 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DennisWayne View Post
I have never studied Plato but as I recall his writings are in Classical Greek rather then Koine Greek. I would have to study it out to see how the meanings of the words were used in Classical Greek as opposed to Koine Greek to discuss it. I really don't see that would be of any value to the discussion though since we have enough koine sources to ascertain the usage and meanings of words at the time the scriptures were written.

Have fun with this thread. I must move on to something of more value.
I already acknowledged that it was not you who brought in Plato in another thread; I rather asked to answer on my reply in this thread, concerning Diodorus, who was almost contemporary with Christ, so that was Koine Greek I guess, don't try to draw off the attention now.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/28823074-post71.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
svenM,
I went to your link.
It seems to me that aionios does not change its meaning due to what it is modifying. The eonian times and eonian God of Romans 16:25,26 and the eonian life and eonian chastening of Matthew 25:46 are all pertaining to the eons.

"Eonian God" is not telling us if God is everlasting or not. It is telling us about His relationship to the eons. Likewise the eonian times is telling us about the times pertaining to the eons. The life of the sheep nations (not believers) is the life pertaining to the eons and the chastening of the goat nations (not unbelievers) is pertaining to the eons.
I would basically agree with this, though I do not think that aion means age in a strict technical sense (unlike century e.g.), but rather duration up to any length, aionios in this sense needn't mean pertaining to a specific age, but simply "lasting".

I came across a interesting quote, are you able to translate this passage:

εἰς οὓς ἐμβάλλονται αἱ ψυχαὶ κατὰ τὰς διαφορὰς τῶν ἁμαρτάδων, αἱ μὲν ἀιδίως κολασθησόμεναι διὰ τὸ ἀνίατα ἡμαρτηκέναι ἐν τῷ Ταρτάρῳ. πλὴν εἰ καὶ λέγω ἀιδίως, μὴ δὴ νομίσῃς, ὅτι εἰς ἀπείρους αἰῶνας κολάζεται ἡ ψυχὴ ἐν τῷ Ταρτάρῳ (εὖ γε οὐ διὰ μῆνιν τοῦ θείου κολάζεται ἡ ψυχή, ἀλλ’ ἰατρείας χάριν), ἀλλ’ αἰωνίως φαμὲν κολάζεσθαι τὴν ψυχὴν αἰῶνα καλοῦντες τὸν αὐτῆς βίον καὶ τὴν μερικὴν αὐτῆς περίοδον.

It is related to this quote:

Quote:
.. Olympiodorus, who wrote on this very subject, to vindicate his language. In his commentary on the Meteorologica of Aristotle, he says: "Do not suppose that the soul is punished for endless ages in Tartarus. Very properly the soul is not punished to gratify the revenge of the divinity, but for the sake of healing. But we say that the soul is punished for an aeonian period, calling its life, and its allotted period of punishment, its aeon." It will be noticed that he not only denies endless punishment, and denies that the doctrine can be expressed by aionios declares that punishment is temporary and results in the sinner's improvement.
I came across the discussion:

Help urgently needed! (aion, aionios??) : Open Board

The relevant passages there are these:

Quote:

....

And I also tracked down the quote from Olympiadorus. I don't have a problem with the translation but it leaves out the part from before, which is

εἰς οὓς ἐμβάλλονται αἱ ψυχαὶ κατὰ τὰς διαφορὰς τῶν ἁμαρτάδων, αἱ μὲν ἀιδίως κολασθησόμεναι διὰ τὸ ἀνίατα ἡμαρτηκέναι ἐν τῷ Ταρτάρῳ. πλὴν εἰ καὶ λέγω ἀιδίως, μὴ δὴ νομίσῃς, ὅτι εἰς ἀπείρους αἰῶνας κολάζεται ἡ ψυχὴ ἐν τῷ Ταρτάρῳ (εὖ γε οὐ διὰ μῆνιν τοῦ θείου κολάζεται ἡ ψυχή, ἀλλ’ ἰατρείας χάριν), ἀλλ’ αἰωνίως φαμὲν κολάζεσθαι τὴν ψυχὴν αἰῶνα καλοῦντες τὸν αὐτῆς βίον καὶ τὴν μερικὴν αὐτῆς περίοδον.

It says the souls will be punished aidios and despite the fact that he says that, he says don't think the soul is punished for endless ages. Aidios, though, means "everlasting", and here we seem him equate aionios with aidios, so I don't see how this passage can be used to show that ainios doesn't mean eternal -- in fact I think it's evidence that it does. He's just interpreting what "eternal" means, just as you could in English.

....

About Olympiadorus, I'm now sure I misunderstood him. (The Greek passage is available online at http://www.toxolyros.gr/index.php?optio ... Itemid=857 if anybody's interested.) I stopped reading but in what comes after, he explicitly makes a distinction between aidios and aionios, so I don't understand why he seems to mix the two in the passage I quoted. But the distinction he makes is interesting, he takes aionios to mean being all in the now (he says we call god aionios because his existence is not in time but all time, present, past and future, is like now to him) while aidios means existing for all time (we don't call god aidios because his existence is not in time).

I'm still confused by the passage -- he says some sins are incurable and says the punishments are everlasting, and yet it's not to be understood as meaning for all ages. The only thing I can think of is that what he has in mind is a series of ages (or perhaps a cycle of ages), within which time exists and within which the punishment is everlasting, but the age might come to an end and the punishments with it. But you can ignore my comments on that passage now, since I'm not quite sure what to conclude from it.
Are you able to translate the Greek passage? - But I think it's the passage already quoted, unluckily the link with the subsequent text is broken. If I understand that post right, aionios in that passage (or in the subsequent text) might mean eternal in the sense of timelessness (which has nothing to do with duration) whereas aidios means ever-lasting in the sense of lasting throughout all time (but only as long as time itself exists), yet both terms seem not to mean endless (Greek apeiros) in the mind of Olympiodorus, who was contemporary with Justinian, that Justinian who made endless punishment a dogma.

Last edited by svenM; 03-26-2013 at 08:48 AM..

 
Old 03-26-2013, 08:27 AM
 
373 posts, read 311,241 times
Reputation: 98
From the book "Universalism: The Prevailing Doctrine"

Quote:
The first Christians, it will be seen, said in their creeds, "I believe in the aeonian life;" later, they modified the phrase "aeonian life," to "the life of the coming aeon," showing that the phrases are equivalent. But not a word of endless punishment. "The life of the age to come" was the first Christian creed, and later, Origen himself declares his belief in aeonian punishment, and in ćonian life beyond. How, then, could aeonian punishment have been regarded as endless?
 
Old 03-26-2013, 09:21 AM
 
367 posts, read 281,364 times
Reputation: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
I already acknowledged that it was not you who brought in Plato in another thread; I rather asked to answer on my reply in this thread, concerning Diodorus, who was almost contemporary with Christ, so that was Koine Greek I guess, don't try to draw off the attention now. .................................
.................................................. ....................................
.........................

.
Sorry but I am not acquainted with the writings of Diodorus. As for translating the passage, just remember that " aionios" must be interpreted by its context. And as I have said I am disengaging the topic of this thread. It's more like a mob chanting rather than people have a discussion.

Have fun!
 
Old 03-26-2013, 10:24 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,712,214 times
Reputation: 845
I have given a link to the Greek texts (it provides also a translation), but if you do not want to further contribute to the discussion then it's ok for me.

To be honest I have no fun with these threads, those who are not the least acquainted with Greek language always post the same arguments, arguments that already have been refuted over and over again, those who are acquainted with Greek simply leave the discussion at some point, but maybe you/they see it just the way round and consider "us universalists" as the ones unacquainted with Greek and ingnorant, so be it; as I said, the discussion seems not to have changed since 150 - 200 years.

However you do yourself no favor if you ignore historical evidence, you should have considered these texts, if only to refute my claims. I have not ignored Plato's Timaios and the claims of the infernalists, if I had ignored them I could not try to refute them.
 
Old 03-26-2013, 11:08 AM
 
1,473 posts, read 1,017,533 times
Reputation: 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by DennisWayne View Post
Sorry but I am not acquainted with the writings of Diodorus. As for translating the passage, just remember that " aionios" must be interpreted by its context. And as I have said I am disengaging the topic of this thread. It's more like a mob chanting rather than people have a discussion.

Have fun!
If that is the case, then there are at least two mobs and you were in one of them. Congratulations for escaping the mob! They even let you out without concrete shoes this time! (rimshot) ...I love mob jokes
 
Old 03-26-2013, 01:40 PM
 
367 posts, read 281,364 times
Reputation: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
I have given a link to the Greek texts (it provides also a translation), but if you do not want to further contribute to the discussion then it's ok for me.

To be honest I have no fun with these threads, those who are not the least acquainted with Greek language always post the same arguments, arguments that already have been refuted over and over again, those who are acquainted with Greek simply leave the discussion at some point, but maybe you/they see it just the way round and consider "us universalists" as the ones unacquainted with Greek and ingnorant, so be it; as I said, the discussion seems not to have changed since 150 - 200 years.

However you do yourself no favor if you ignore historical evidence, you should have considered these texts, if only to refute my claims. I have not ignored Plato's Timaios and the claims of the infernalists, if I had ignored them I could not try to refute them.
You would have to convince me of but one thing and it's not possible because I know truth. So, there ya go! I have settled this issue for myself and am only trying to shed light and truth where there is darkness.
 
Old 03-26-2013, 03:06 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,456,138 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWings View Post
From the book "Universalism: The Prevailing Doctrine"
The first Christians, it will be seen, said in their creeds, "I believe in the aeonian life;" later, they modified the phrase "aeonian life," to "the life of the coming aeon," showing that the phrases are equivalent. But not a word of endless punishment. "The life of the age to come" was the first Christian creed, and later, Origen himself declares his belief in aeonian punishment, and in ćonian life beyond. How, then, could aeonian punishment have been regarded as endless?
The really sad thing WhiteWings, is we can show these things to the ETers here till we are blue in the face and they will just act as if they never saw them.
I wish we could post these things in Braille so they could read them.

Excellent post!
 
Old 03-26-2013, 03:31 PM
 
7,788 posts, read 10,461,224 times
Reputation: 3392
Thread closed.
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