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Old 03-23-2013, 07:56 PM
 
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How many times do we have to have this discussion? Seriously....Christianity has taught an eternal hell for 2000 years....but time and time again, that becomes the focal point for a subset of people on this board. Maybe you ought to rethink your position instead of always having to try to justify it.

 
Old 03-23-2013, 08:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
How many times do we have to have this discussion? Seriously....Christianity has taught an eternal hell for 2000 years....but time and time again, that becomes the focal point for a subset of people on this board. Maybe you ought to rethink your position instead of always having to try to justify it.
Actually, that is a false assumption on your part Vizio that Christianity taught an eternal hell for 2000 years. The majority in the first 5 centuries understood aion and aionios to not mean eternal. As a matter of fact, Augustine said that in his day the majority of Christians believed that all punishment was temporary. Here is a link to this fact: Augustine and eternal torment

Augustine said: “It is quite in vain, then, that some–indeed very many–yield to merely human feelings and deplore the notion of the eternal punishment of the damned and their interminable and perpetual misery."
The phrase "very many" can also be translated "the majority"

Maybe you should rethink your position rather than just waving your hand and stating unproven assertions.

Last edited by Eusebius; 03-23-2013 at 08:49 PM..
 
Old 03-23-2013, 08:05 PM
 
17,862 posts, read 8,922,914 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
God is immortal.
Throughout all time, having no beginning or end.
 
Old 03-23-2013, 08:38 PM
 
367 posts, read 281,364 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
How many times do we have to have this discussion? Seriously....Christianity has taught an eternal hell for 2000 years....but time and time again, that becomes the focal point for a subset of people on this board. Maybe you ought to rethink your position instead of always having to try to justify it.
Well when one's whole religion is built upon a lie they must continue to promote the lie to try and convince anyone they can (and mostly themselves) that the lie is true. So sad.
 
Old 03-23-2013, 08:40 PM
 
Location: Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Please re-read my original post. It is impossible for aionion to be "eternal" because its noun from which it is derived from never means eternal. The adjective cannot be greater than the noun from which it is derived.
The Greeks used Aion and Aionion as idiomatic expressions in relation to spiritual/moral topics. And since we are dealing with Greek in the New Testament, which is about the spiritual/moral topics it is incorrect to translate the literal meaning of the words a lot of the time.

I agree our trusted old versions have went overboard with the two words, but to claim they never can mean eternal is going overboard in the other direction, which is what our newer versions are doing. A good version of the Bible should convey the understanding to us as the Greeks would have understood it. We are quickly running out of good versions.

Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

You and I both know that "for ever", literally means something like 'to the ages' here. Yet you and I both know this is saying Christ will reign for ever and so it is translated properly here. Even the last part of the verse proves it. The Greeks would have understood this to mean for ever here and so should we. And since this is the noun, you and I both know the adjective is equal it to.
 
Old 03-23-2013, 08:40 PM
 
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The Greek phrase aionas ton aionon, which is translated "forever and ever," occurs 18 times in the Greek New Testament. In 17 of them, the phrase means without end, extending into infinity. In Rev. 19:3, the phrase is used to describe the destruction of the great ***** of Babylon (Rev. 17:1,4) whose smoke ascends forever and ever. It too is eternal and it signifies the beginning of the eternal judgment that comes upon her.

Also worth examining is Rev. 14:11: "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

The Greek in Rev. 14:11 is only slightly different. "Forever and ever" is translated from the Greek, aionas ton aionon, which is literally "ages of the of ages." In Rev. 14:11, the Greek is aionas aionon which is literally, "ages of ages." In the latter, the single Greek word "of the" is missing. But it is not necessary and does not change the meaning of the text. Therefore, the scripture teaches the smoke of their torment goes up forever, without end.

Go here for the entire article this clip is from http://carm.org/hell-eternal

Last edited by DennisWayne; 03-23-2013 at 09:00 PM..
 
Old 03-23-2013, 08:44 PM
 
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"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen," (1 Tim. 1:17).

". . . To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever" (Rev. 5:13).

So how is God the "King Eternal" and how long should He receive "honor and glory"? Some here say not forever but for less time.
 
Old 03-23-2013, 08:54 PM
 
17,862 posts, read 8,922,914 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DennisWayne View Post
The Greek phrase aionas ton aionon, which is translated "forever and ever," occurs 18 times in the Greek New Testament. In 17 of them, the phrase means without end, extending into infinity. In Rev. 19:3, the phrase is used to describe the destruction of the great ***** of Babylon (Rev. 17:1,4) whose smoke ascends forever and ever. It too is eternal and it signifies the beginning of the eternal judgment that comes upon her.

Also worth examining is Rev. 14:11: "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

The Greek in Rev. 14:11 is only slightly different. In the table above, "forever and ever" is translated from the Greek, aionas ton aionon, which is literally "ages of the of ages." In Rev. 14:11, the Greek is aionas aionon which is literally, "ages of ages." In the latter, the single Greek word "of the" is missing. But it is not necessary and does not change the meaning of the text. Therefore, the scripture teaches the smoke of their torment goes up forever, without end.
Can you provide the source, instead of plagiarism.

Last edited by Jerwade; 03-23-2013 at 09:04 PM.. Reason: Will you provide the source?
 
Old 03-23-2013, 08:57 PM
 
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Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Danial 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
 
Old 03-23-2013, 08:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cowdog View Post

Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

o.
It is improper to use Luke 1:33 to try to support an idea that "aionas" (eons) should be translated as "for ever." If anything it should be translated as "for the evers."

Luk 1:33 His father, and He shall reign over the house of Jacob for the eons. And of His kingdom there shall be no consummation."

Notice that that which is OF His kingdom that there shall be no consummation. Not only that but we need to look at the verse from which this verse is taken which is here:


Dan 7:13-14 Perceiving am I in the visions of the night, and behold, on the clouds of the heavens, One as a son of a mortal is arriving:Unto the Transferrer of Days He reaches, and they bring Him near before Him;" (14) to Him is granted jurisdiction and esteem and a kingdom, and all the peoples and leagues and language-groups shall serve Him; His jurisdiction, as an eonian jurisdiction, will not pass away, and His kingdom shall not be confined."

Notice that "eonian" in Daniel means "pertaining to the eons." In Luke, he gives his understanding of "eonian" by translating this verse as "for the eons." Therefore eonian to Luke meant "for the eons". And just what are the future eons Christ will reign in? They are the 1000 year eon and the new earth eon.

Luke knew this passage and knew it was concerning Christ's kingdom not being confined to just Israel but would be world-wide. It in in this understanding that "no consummation" takes on a proper light. His kingdom will not be consumated in just Israel but will be world-wide.

Now then other scriptures testify to the truth that death will be abolished, all mankind will be subject to Christ, and then Christ will quit reigning, hand over the kingdom to God and then, God will be All in all (see 1 Corinthians 15:22-28).
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