U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
 
Old 03-23-2013, 08:29 PM
 
17,658 posts, read 8,860,686 times
Reputation: 1485

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by cowdog View Post
I repeat like before, the Greeks would have understood Luke 1:33 to mean Christ would reign for ever and hence it is properly translated.
Nothing you have said above about the other verses, or the literal meaning of the word changes that.
Only until the Spirit is revealed in, and through ALL humanity?

 
Old 03-23-2013, 08:36 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,425,536 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by cowdog View Post
Luke 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

Looks like Luke was quoting the angel according to the WORD OF GOD WHICH SETTLES THE MATTER.

Good grief ... I'm done.
No, the angel knew the Daniel prophecy which said "eonian jurisdiction" and understood "eonian" to mean "for the eons" since the angel said "eis tous aionas." So what the angel said, and what Luke wrote and what God meant was that "eonian" means "for the eons.

Don't you get it? Both the angel and Luke knew the Daniel prophecy of Daniel 7:14 which said "eonian jurisdiction." They both translated "eonian" as "for the eons." Case closed. Eonian never means "everlasting" nor "eternal."

Are you done or well done?
 
Old 03-23-2013, 08:37 PM
 
17,658 posts, read 8,860,686 times
Reputation: 1485
Quote:
Originally Posted by DennisWayne View Post
That's right when the message is spot on and exposes your false religion you must attack the messenger!
I have attacked no one, neither have I made false accusations.
 
Old 03-23-2013, 08:44 PM
 
367 posts, read 280,607 times
Reputation: 50
Clearly the New Testament message is against universalism. As the Son of God said in Mat. 7, “Not everyone who saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Jesus teaches us in Mat. 10, to “fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” In the parable of the wheat and tares (Mat. 13:40-42), Jesus says of the tares, “cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth” and explains that this is how the judgement shall be. Notice the tares do not come back out of the fire.

Jesus Christ is responsible for the doctrine of eternal punishment. Jesus quite often makes specific references to Hell and eternal damnation. Jesus, the Lord of love, spoke more about Hell than He did about Heaven. He said that Hell is a place where “the fire is not quenched and the worm dieth not” (Mark 9:48). Just as Heaven is more wonderful than symbols can picture it, so Hell is more terrible than its symbols can describe it. If Hell is not fire, it is something far worse. No wonder Jesus warned against it so often and so emphatically! Whether or not I like it or even understand it, I believe it. If all men will be universally saved, what is the significance of Jesus statement, “Narrow is the way which leadeth unto Life, and few there be that find it” (Mat. 7:14)?
 
Old 03-23-2013, 08:48 PM
 
17,658 posts, read 8,860,686 times
Reputation: 1485
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Only until the Spirit is revealed in, and through ALL humanity?
1 Corinthians 15:24-28
Then comes the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all enemies UNDER HIS FEET. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For He hath put all things under His feet. But when He says all things are PUT UNDER Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did PUT all things UNDER HIM. And when ALL THINGS shall be SUBDUED UNTO Him, then shall the Son also Himself BE SUBJECT unto Him that PUT ALL THINGS under Him, that God may be ALL in ALL.
 
Old 03-23-2013, 08:55 PM
 
17,658 posts, read 8,860,686 times
Reputation: 1485
Quote:
Originally Posted by DennisWayne View Post
Jesus Christ is responsible for the doctrine of eternal punishment.
Jesus quite often makes specific references to Hell and eternal damnation.
Jesus, the Lord of love, spoke more about Hell than He did about Heaven.
Delusions of Grandeur is common within the realm of Plebeians; one lacking in discernment.
 
Old 03-23-2013, 10:08 PM
 
19,952 posts, read 12,963,461 times
Reputation: 1957
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Actually, that is a false assumption on your part Vizio that Christianity taught an eternal hell for 2000 years. The majority in the first 5 centuries understood aion and aionios to not mean eternal. As a matter of fact, Augustine said that in his day the majority of Christians believed that all punishment was temporary. Here is a link to this fact: Augustine and eternal torment

Augustine said: “It is quite in vain, then, that some–indeed very many–yield to merely human feelings and deplore the notion of the eternal punishment of the damned and their interminable and perpetual misery."
The phrase "very many" can also be translated "the majority"

Maybe you should rethink your position rather than just waving your hand and stating unproven assertions.
Yes---there were heretics in Augustine's day. Don't confuse popular belief with truth, though.
 
Old 03-24-2013, 05:09 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,706,353 times
Reputation: 842
Aiôn is a most interesting word, there have been so many threads on this topic, I wish we would have continued our examination on its use in Plato's Timaios.

What is interesting, most writings on Aiôn, be it from universalists (e.g. Hanson) or infernalists (e.g. Darby) seem to be from the 19th century, they all alude to Plato, Aristotle and Philo of Alexandria to support their claims, everybody after them seems to have used their argumentation. In other words, the discussion has not changed for 150-200 years.

A dutch scholar did a dissertation few years ago on the meaning of aiôn which is most interesting:

Life Time Entirety. A Study of AION in Greek Literature and Philosophy, the ... - Helena Maria Keizer - Google Books

Concerning the "aionios God" she also alludes to Philo:

Quote:
God’s “aiônic name”, according to Philo, is the name describing his relation to the aiôn, i.e., to the world of human beings. As Runia argues the distinction made by Philo between God as he is in himself and God as he stands in relation to his people, is inspired by Greek philosophy and the ontologizing translation if Exod.3:14; it cannot be sustained in the light of the Biblical con(text) itself, which (be it Hebrew or the Greek) says precisely that 'He who is' has sent Moses to his people. Philo’s interpretation of aiônios and aiôn in the biblical context, nonetheless, is in line with what we concluded in Chapter IV regarding the meaning of Biblical aiôn(ios).
Keizer, Life Time Entirety, Page 233

The Biblical meaning of aiôn, according to Keizer is not eternity/timelessness/endlessness but time and duration.

Interestingly, some of the early Christian philosophers decided between "created eternity", aiôn; and "uncreated eternity", God's eternity, aidiotês. Some wrote God is "hyperaionios", "more than eternal".

Aiôn is not endlessness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DennisWayne View Post
Your making claims but providing no evidence and you have not proven you have knowledge enough to be trusted. What you go to hide? What is your education in Greek and Hebrew? Why do you expect us to take the word of an unnamed internet person who does not tell us of any of his knowledge or education in a matter over the hundreds and thousands of knowledgeable people that God has used to translate His word for us?
Concerning Daniel 12:2

Isaiah 54:4 (NETS, a translation of the Septuagint)

Do not fear because you were put to shame, neither feel disgraced because you were reproached, because you will forget your ancient shame [aischynên aiơnion] and the reproach of your widowhood you will not remember.

The Hebrew word that has been rendered with æonian is awlum (Strong’s Number - 05934), of youth; of youth hardly resembles eternity.

Ancient, or æonian shame [aischynên aiơnion] is the very same expression as in Daniel 12:2 in the Septuagint, yet it is said here that such æonian shame shall be forgotten.

Daniel 12:2, C. L. Brenton

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life [zơên aiơnion], and some to reproach and everlasting shame [aischynên aiơnion].

Zơên aiơnion, is the same expression as throughout the New Testament, it is also found in the preserved Greek text of the pseudepigraphal book of Enoch

Enoch 10:10, R. H. Charles’ translation (from the Ethiopic)

And no request that they make of thee shall be granted unto their fathers on their behalf; for they hope to live an eternal life [zơên aiơnion], and that each one of them will live five hundred years [etê pentakosia].

“Eternal” or æonian life is equalized here with 500 years; this is far from being eternal.

See more examples in this thread: everlasting punishment - a doctrine based on the "authority" of the Greek philosophers

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
Yes---there were heretics in Augustine's day. Don't confuse popular belief with truth, though.
Didn't you do the same when you said

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
Seriously....Christianity has taught an eternal hell for 2000 years....
already Paul warns of false teachers in the Bible, maybe they were the majority even then, therefore neither the appeal to tradition nor to majority is valid.

1 Timothy 4:10

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.


It seems already Paul suffered reproach because he taught that God is the savior of all men.

Last edited by svenM; 03-24-2013 at 06:22 AM..
 
Old 03-24-2013, 06:00 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,425,536 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
Yes---there were heretics in Augustine's day. Don't confuse popular belief with truth, though.
Yes, there were, the ones who believed in eternal torment were the heretics.

The two Gregory's were universalists. Gregory of Nyssa was a Bishop, and was called "the father of fathers," who believed in God saving all mankind. He openly taught this. When he went to Nicea, he helped craft the Nicene Creed. Not one person in that conclave opposed him on his universalism. No, not even one. The reason being is it was accepted by the majority. Gregory of Nazianzus also believed in God saving all. These men were never considered heretics amongst the elite of the church.

Augustine was right that the majority believed God would save all. He inappropriately tried to use Matthew 25:46 to disprove the majority's understanding.

Dr. F.W. Farrar says: "It may be worthwhile, however, to point out once more to less educated readers
that aion, aionios, and their Hebrew equivalents in all combinations are repeatedly used of things which
have come to an end. Even Augustine admits (what, indeed, no one can deny), that in Scripture aion and
aionios must in many instances mean 'having an end,' and St. Gregory of Nyssa, who at least knew Greek,
uses aionios as the epithet for 'an interval.'"(By Louis Abbott, An Analytical Study of Words)
 
Old 03-24-2013, 06:25 AM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,195 posts, read 14,086,044 times
Reputation: 10085
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
How many times do we have to have this discussion? Seriously....Christianity has taught an eternal hell for 2000 years....but time and time again, that becomes the focal point for a subset of people on this board. Maybe you ought to rethink your position instead of always having to try to justify it.
Thank you.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top