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Old 03-24-2013, 07:37 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
A couple of facts about the worm/maggot.

They clean the wounds by dissolving dead and infected tissue
They disinfect the wound (kill bacteria);
They speed the rate of healing.
on that
But that is not in the context of the scripture. This worm will eat and never die and the fire will continue to burn forever. This is a never ending event. Not some purification ritual.

 
Old 03-24-2013, 07:48 AM
 
Location: Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DennisWayne View Post
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

STRONGS : aionios ahee-o'-nee-os from 165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):--eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began). see GREEK for 165

Thank God for His free gift of Eternal, perpetual, eternal, for ever, everlasting Life!


Aion= age

its adjective aionion= that which pertains to the age

and its plural aionious= ages.

That aion has a plural should tell you that it does not mean eternal.

And another thing for you to conceder is that eternal means without beginning and without end.

Yet all who hold to aion meaning eternal have to change the meaning of the word to suite their eternal torment doctrine, and they change it to mean just without end and leave out without beginning. That they have to do this should tell everyone something.

Another thing that should be considered is that to get the meaning of eternal one has to go outside of the scriptures, for the scriptures testifies that the aions have a beginning.

Hebrews 1:2
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds/aions.

The aions were MADE.



1 Corinthians 2:7
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world/aion unto our glory:

BEFORE the aion.



2 Timothy 1:9
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world/aionion began,



BEFORE the aionion BEGAN.





Scripture testifies that the aions have an end.

Hebrews 9:26
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world/aion hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

The aion ENDS



1 Corinthians 10:11
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world/aion are come.

The aion ENDS



Matthew 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world/aion?


The aion ENDS.

Therefore if you trust the scriptures eternity (without beginning and without end) must be an error in translation.
 
Old 03-24-2013, 07:52 AM
 
Location: Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DennisWayne View Post
But that is not in the context of the scripture. This worm will eat and never die and the fire will continue to burn forever. This is a never ending event. Not some purification ritual.
according to who? You do realise the Jew believes that aion punishment is a 12 month purification don't you.
 
Old 03-24-2013, 07:58 AM
 
Location: Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAA2310 View Post
Dennis, this site does a nice job in explaining the true biblical intent of how this Greek word is used in those places that speak of these things as "eternal".

Along with this article is the similar http://carm.org/look-word-aonion.

The article ends with the observation that:

"It should be quite obvious that there is an eternal punishment and that universalism is nothing more than a hopeful wish. The Universalists are not justified in picking and choosing the meaning of a word based upon their interpretations of "aion" that suits them and depending on which verse is used".


It wasn't my personal intention to pick on or point to any specific group of people, but Matt's article ends with this observation, as this is the circle where this teaching is predominantly found. I'm really not prepared to engage in a discussion about eternal punishment, but the contrary position also holds to an idea that every single human being will eventually end up saved, which is even more of an incorrect position if we base our understanding on the Bible.

Many people have not, and will not come to Christ; and it is quite clear from Scripture that coming to Christ is the only means by which one must be saved. It then becomes important to understand what it means to come to Christ. Many people have been "fond" of a lot of what Jesus has said and taught. And these are beautiful teachings. I believe many in the Universalist camp will agree with Jesus about how "everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

This is a very critical teaching of Christ/Scripture, and characterizes the state of man, by nature, and highlights the reason why man will not "seek after God" as God requires. Note below (in the Old Testament, as well):

Ps 10:4
4 The wicked in his proud countenance does not seek God;
God is in none of his thoughts.

I believe that part of the issue is a lack of agreement in understanding the nature of salvation, and why it is we actually need salvation. We are, indeed, in trouble with God because of our sins. And without even getting into the eternity issue, God also speaks of this matter in terms of His wrath. Even a verse like John 3:36 brings this out:

" He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him".

One of the scariest passages in the Bible (IMHO) is Rev 6:15-17 (below):

15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

There is so much more that can be shared here. But the point I really wish to make for our Universalist friends is that, contrary to what it might appear, those who preach the Gospel by speaking of hell or wrath are not being (or certainly should not be) mean or cold in doing so. In fact, they are simply trying to tell the truth about what is is we are ultimately saved from. I believe it is what the Bible refers to as "the whole counsel of God".

It is only when the hearer is given eyes to see and a heart to understand the truth about himself and his need of salvation that he will truly cry out to God for mercy and embrace the Savior with all his being. This is a consequence of the work of grace that God does in the sinner who is being drawn to Christ, which is also accompanied by a new attitude about sin, and a consequent desire to serve God, which was previously not possible, as now the "saved" sinner is indwelt by the Spirit of God, yet another glorious result of God's saving work.

If we truly love our fellow man we will want to tell him the truth as we share the Gospel of God's saving grace through Jesus Christ. I realize that there are those who do not come across this way, and that is a shame. May it never be that any of us give the impression that "I am saved and you're not and you're going to hell".... that would be a tragedy. We must also realize that there will be those who have convinced themselves that they are saved, but may not have actually been born of God. Here is one last (scary) passage:

Jesus told some of his hearers:

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will
(Matt 7:21-23)

We all so desperately need God.... every second of the day. Praise God that He is a merciful and loving God. As His (saved) children, we are assured that we can come to Him with confidence. The references are too many at this point in the post. But we, indeed, have "boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him[Christ] (Eph 3:12).

May our Lord richly bless you all.


This is taken from my very, very long rebuttal of Matt Slicks take on Universalism.


MUCH MORE then aionios life

Many of God people believe aionios life is the fullness of life in Christ, and because of this error they have a hard time answering the eternal punishment and eternal life scriptures.

They will state such things as aionios can mean something different within one sentence, and it subject determines the fullness or lack thereof of the meaning.

Matthew 25:46
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Those who believe in eternal torment say those who believe in the salvation of all change the meaning of a word within one sentence, example the above scripture, they say that when aionios is applied to torment the universalist says it only means a limited time period, but when applied to eternal life the universalist say aionios means endless life or a life without end, thus playing with words in order to suite their doctrine.

And I agree, to change the meaning of a word within one sentence is playing with words, but this same playing with words concerning aionios is not just done by those who believe in the salvation of all. Those who believe in eternal torment also must change the meaning of aionios in one sentence.

Example The Hebrew word for aionios is olam, so lets look at Hab. from the old testament.

Habakkuk 3:6
6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.


The reader can see here that both the hills and Gods ways are everlasting. So if olam or aionios in the Greek means without beginning and without end then the hills had no beginning and will have no end, but we know that the hills have a beginning and we no that they have an end because they bow down.

Now the only way for those who believe in eternal torment can get around this is to say olam means one thing in the first part of the sentence when applied to the hills and means something else in the second part of the sentence when applied to God ways. Thus doing the same thing the universalist does with Mt.25:46


But the neither party need change the meaning of aionios in such a fashion to understand Gods eternal (as in without beginning and without end) being. For there are other words in scripture to show forth Gods eternal (as in without beginning and without end) being.



Before I show how God is eternal in the sense of without beginning and without end lets look at a few more scriptures that will help the reader understand aionios only means age-lasting and is of limited duration.



Psalm 41:13
13 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.

Psalm 90:1-2
1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. 2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Here the reader can see God is from olam/aionios to olam/aionios.
If olam/aionios means without beginning and without end then these scripture makes absolutely no sense, for can there be more then ONE eternity? Hardly, so the reader cans see olam/aionios is used in the limited sense of age-lasting.


But some will say if it is always used in a limited sense then that would mean aionios life is also limited in duration. This is CORRECT, aionios life is of limited duration.
I already know many will say that’s blaspheme, but bare with me for a few more moments if you will.

Lets go back to Ps.90 for a moment and read it again.

Psalm 90:1-2
1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. 2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

We have already seen olam/aionios is of limited duration, but what else does this scripture tell us? It tells us that the LIFE of God is GREATER then that of olam/aionios, for God is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios.

The Life of God and of Christ is not just olam/aionios but their LIFE is MORE then that, yea MUCH MORE. Their LIFE exceeds the olam/aionios life just as a week exceeds a day, a month exceeds a week and a year exceeds a month, so to does the LIFE of God in Christ exceed olam/aionios LIFE.

The error both camps fall into is the belief that aionios life is all the life there is in God and Christ. But as the reader just read God is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios, thus is it not then clear that we to in Christ are given a LIFE far greater then just olam/aionios LIFE.

Lets read in Hebrew and you will see Christ life (and therefore ours) exceeds that of olam/aionios life.

Hebrews 7:16
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

Akatalutos-Endless: indissoluble, not subject to destruction
From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end

Now as Akatalutos-Endless clearly shows that of a life without end, why did not the writers of the scriptures use Akatalutos concerning punishment and life instead of olam/aionios? Is it not because olam/aionios is of limited duration?

What we receive in Christ is a AKATALUTOS/ENDLESS LIFE, a life that spans EVERY olam/aionios age-lasting life. Just as Gods life is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios so to is ours in Christ.

Lets read in Pet. To further see this life we are to inherit that is MUCH MORE then olam/aionios life.

1 Peter 1:3-4
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Aphthartos-incorruptible: uncorrupted, not liable to corruption or decay, imperishable
Again From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end

Amarantos-fadeth not away: not fading away, unfading, perennial
Again From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end

Can not the reader see here just how much more grand our life is in Christ then just olam/aionios age-abiding life?

These are just a few examples of how MUCH MORE our life in Christ is then olam/aionios life.

If punishment was to be eternal in the sense of without beginning and without end surely the Holy Spirit would have use one of the words expressed above to show this, but NEVER is any of these words that express endlessness EVER used in the punishments of God.

Praise God there is MUCH MORE to life in Christ then just that of olam/aionios life, and it is because so many of God people do not realise this that they fall into the error of changing the meaning of words within the same sentence.

Brothers and sister there is absolutely no need to do this if one can but see the life we have in Christ is MUCH MORE then olam/aionios life.

Even FROM everlasting TO everlasting, thou art God.
 
Old 03-24-2013, 08:06 AM
 
Location: Germany
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Isaiah 66:24 says:

And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorrence unto all flesh.

One must have a sick mind to understand this verse as teaching endless conscious suffering.

What is so hard to understand with this symbol, people who transgressed against God have perished and remain unburried - a shamefull death, the worms do not die until the carcasses are devoured, likewise the fire.

Jesus seems to refer to this scene in Mark 9; as far as I know, many Jews have been killed after the siege of Jerusalem and were tossed in the valley of Hinnom (Gehenna, "hell").

Quote:
The death rate among the besieged increased. Soon, the Kidron valley and the Valley of Hinnom were filled with corpses. One defector told Titus that their number was estimated at 115,880.
Wars between the Jews and Romans

Quote:
To a devout Jew, such as a Pharisee, the idea of not being buried properly, but instead having one's body dumped in the accursed valley, was almost too horrible to contemplate. Warnings about Gehenna were understood to speak of defilement, judgment and destruction for both the nation and the Temple system. For the unfortunate souls who witnessed the horrors of 70 AD (and 135 AD), Jeremiah's words would have seemed to have come true all over again: Gehenna had again become the "Valley of Slaughter" where the "plans of Judah and Jerusalem" had come to ruin.
Danny Coleman: Hell, Part 4
 
Old 03-24-2013, 08:48 AM
 
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As always, when Jesus spoke of the life, it is eternal life. He gives eternal life in this age and it will last forever.

ROM 8 "For the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death." What is the Spirit of Life in Christ? It is as the Scriptures say, GAL 5:22-23 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

ROM 8:10 "And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life [eternal] because of righteousness [fruit of the Spirit]." The body is already dead but the Spirit will live now and forever.
 
Old 03-24-2013, 09:27 AM
 
Location: Tucson, Arizona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
Aiôn is a most interesting word, there have been so many threads on this topic, I wish we would have continued our examination on its use in Plato's Timaios.

What is interesting, most writings on Aiôn, be it from universalists (e.g. Hanson) or infernalists (e.g. Darby) seem to be from the 19th century, they all alude to Plato, Aristotle and Philo of Alexandria to support their claims, everybody after them seems to have used their argumentation. In other words, the discussion has not changed for 150-200 years.

A dutch scholar did a dissertation few years ago on the meaning of aiôn which is most interesting:

Life Time Entirety. A Study of AION in Greek Literature and Philosophy, the ... - Helena Maria Keizer - Google Books

Concerning the "aionios God" she also alludes to Philo:

Keizer, Life Time Entirety, Page 233

The Biblical meaning of aiôn, according to Keizer is not eternity/timelessness/endlessness but time and duration.

Interestingly, some of the early Christian philosophers decided between "created eternity", aiôn; and "uncreated eternity", God's eternity, aidiotês. Some wrote God is "hyperaionios", "more than eternal".

Aiôn is not endlessness.



Concerning Daniel 12:2

Isaiah 54:4 (NETS, a translation of the Septuagint)

Do not fear because you were put to shame, neither feel disgraced because you were reproached, because you will forget your ancient shame [aischynên aiơnion] and the reproach of your widowhood you will not remember.

The Hebrew word that has been rendered with æonian is awlum (Strong’s Number - 05934), of youth; of youth hardly resembles eternity.

Ancient, or æonian shame [aischynên aiơnion] is the very same expression as in Daniel 12:2 in the Septuagint, yet it is said here that such æonian shame shall be forgotten.

Daniel 12:2, C. L. Brenton

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life [zơên aiơnion], and some to reproach and everlasting shame [aischynên aiơnion].

Zơên aiơnion, is the same expression as throughout the New Testament, it is also found in the preserved Greek text of the pseudepigraphal book of Enoch

Enoch 10:10, R. H. Charles’ translation (from the Ethiopic)

And no request that they make of thee shall be granted unto their fathers on their behalf; for they hope to live an eternal life [zơên aiơnion], and that each one of them will live five hundred years [etê pentakosia].

“Eternal” or æonian life is equalized here with 500 years; this is far from being eternal.

See more examples in this thread: everlasting punishment - a doctrine based on the "authority" of the Greek philosophers



Didn't you do the same when you said



already Paul warns of false teachers in the Bible, maybe they were the majority even then, therefore neither the appeal to tradition nor to majority is valid.

1 Timothy 4:10

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.


It seems already Paul suffered reproach because he taught that God is the savior of all men.
I really enjoy your posts, Sven. You offer much intellectual support to your arguments. I wish you would post more.

 
Old 03-24-2013, 10:05 AM
 
Location: Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarletWren View Post
I really enjoy your posts, Sven. You offer much intellectual support to your arguments. I wish you would post more.

Thanks, I have written very much on the topic, search for the threads I created in the past in case you're interested. I'm still researching the topic.

We had this discussion so often in this forum. It is a bit frustrating, I would appreciate a scholarly discussion, but the discussion always leads to where it started and begins again. It is not even a real discussion due to ignorance. But if somebody benefits from it, it's worth the effort, as I only have to quote myself from older threads

As I said, the discussion is the same for 150 years. I think recent research, such as Keizer's dissertation or findings of papyri rather supports the universalist's case, but it is true that the word aionios is ambiguous and also the phrase ages of ages (as it does not appear in secular Greek); especially as the idea of very long but finite time and the idea of everlastingness easily mingles, whereas the idea of eternity on the other hand is distinct from everlastingness as eternity is understood as timelessness, ideas nowhere find in the Bible itself but developed in later centuries. But these ideas have polluted modern translations till the present day.

Last edited by svenM; 03-24-2013 at 10:15 AM..
 
Old 03-24-2013, 10:41 AM
 
Location: Tucson, Arizona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
Thanks, I have written very much on the topic, search for the threads I created in the past in case you're interested. I'm still researching the topic.

We had this discussion so often in this forum. It is a bit frustrating, I would appreciate a scholarly discussion, but the discussion always leads to where it started and begins again. It is not even a real discussion due to ignorance. But if somebody benefits from it, it's worth the effort, as I only have to quote myself from older threads

As I said, the discussion is the same for 150 years. I think recent research, such as Keizer's dissertation or findings of papyri rather supports the universalist's case, but it is true that the word aionios is ambiguous and also the phrase ages of ages (as it does not appear in secular Greek); especially as the idea of very long but finite time and the idea of everlastingness easily mingles, whereas the idea of eternity on the other hand is distinct from everlastingness as eternity is understood as timelessness, ideas nowhere find in the Bible itself but developed in later centuries. But these ideas have polluted modern translations till the present day.
I did open the link you gave for Ms. Keiser's dissertation and will attempt to absorb it, tho it's long. I must admit that I have a difficult time trying to understand God's life outside of time. I can't even contemplate how everything can be NOW. But I have come to understand that everything that has been happening since the 'beginning' of the material creation is a mere blink of an eye in God's existence and that He has a purpose for everything. I do believe that when the ages in which He is creating His son(s) have run their course, that then another set of ages will begin where another purpose will be set forth and fulfilled. I read somewhere that since God is a creating God, and because He does not change, that He will never cease creating. How that plays out in the future I do not know. It is not for us to know at this time.

But as I contemplate this vast universe and all that has happened in the past and is promised for us, I can't envision a being with the magnitude of His wisdom who would create such fragile and flesh-weakened creatures as us and declare that our future depends on a decision that comes from a brain (even soul or spirit if you will) that He created, let alone hold us ultimately responsible when it is so clearly obvious that we were not all given the same intelligence, opportunities to learn of Him, health, and so forth. But as Job said, God has a concern for the work of His hands and He will complete what He has begun. As Paul said, We started out in Adam, without our consent and we will end up in Christ, also wholly by His decree, but when we experience the excellent and undefinable riches of His grace we can do nothing but fall at His 'feet' and give Him glory and praise and thankfullness as we partake of His very life.
 
Old 03-24-2013, 11:44 AM
 
Location: Germany
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Quote:
I must admit that I have a difficult time trying to understand God's life outside of time.
I'm not sure if this is even a biblical idea; I think it's a kind of anachronism if we consign philosophical concepts of a timeless eternity that were developed later, e.g. in the Middle Ages (or outside the biblical context, e.g. Plato) to the biblical terms; but this is the result when we interpret the Bible not by itself but on the authority of so called "churchfathers", Greek philosophy and tradition. I realized this applies to Protestants as much as it does to Catholics.

God is, was and will always be, God is immortal, God knows all past, present and future. Everthing else is mere speculation, for example if time itself was created or if God dwells in a sphere outside time, i.e. "eternity". The Bible says that God created the aions (Hebrews 1:2) and therefore was before the aions. The Bible also speaks of "before aionios times" (Romans 16:25, Titus 1:2, 2 Timothy 1:9), which indicates I think that time existed before the aions and maybe is uncreated (of course aionios in these verses cannot mean eternal or endless as these times obviously ended), but this is all mere speculation and philosophy.
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